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-   -   RAAF Dassault Falcon 7X (https://www.pprune.org/pacific-general-aviation-questions/619985-raaf-dassault-falcon-7x.html)

Petropavlovsk 30th Mar 2019 04:11

RAAF Dassault Falcon 7X
 
RAAF Dassault falcon 7X A56-001 currently en-route from France to completion centre in Little Rock, USA
Replacement of Challenger 604's ?

junior.VH-LFA 30th Mar 2019 08:13

Sssshhhhh. Quiet now.

Slezy9 30th Mar 2019 10:59

Isn't this the worst kept secret in the world....

I'm guessing the Government doesn't want to announce a shiny new VIP transport aircraft before the election.

triadic 30th Mar 2019 11:08

What about this one: https://australianaviation.com.au/20...rfare-support/

TBM-Legend 30th Mar 2019 11:24

Hardly VIP..

LeadSled 30th Mar 2019 14:22


Originally Posted by TBM-Legend (Post 10434128)
Hardly VIP..

And not a 7X, either!!
Tootle pip!!

ramble on 31st Mar 2019 01:31

Well if they are getting G550s for surveillance youd think it commonsense to benefit from fleet commonality with that type for VIP too.

Oh hang on.......common sense.



chimbu warrior 31st Mar 2019 04:56

4 x G550's for 2.5 billion; some middleman has seen Australia coming and done nicely out of this.

Global Aviator 31st Mar 2019 05:00

Hmmm 50/60mil by 4 = $$$

The surveillance gear etc is obviously the rest of the billions.

Have they seriously bought a 7X for VIP? Utter madness as said why not a G550/650ER, fleet commonality, types, yadda yadda yadda!

Great for the RAAF jockeys either way when wanting to get out, straight into a corporate gig.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/IAI_EL/W-2085

Petropavlovsk 31st Mar 2019 06:13

There is no commonsense when Government's buy or lease aircraft; none at all.
The G550's are expensive with the equipment, but my understanding this also covers 10 year life/maintenance support and maintenance included in package. Maybe even engineers as well?
Dassault 7X to replace CL604 is a very good choice. The 7X by reading respected journals have far superior short field qualities than Global, Gulfstream products. It also give RAAFies a different 'stick' to play with, experience is good. Better still they will be able to do a 2 engine ferry for maintenance if required. The F900's prior to the Challengers were apparently problem free...

neville_nobody 31st Mar 2019 14:26

One has to wonder what the mission profile was. How many airports do they need to fly to that the 650 doesn't get into? Basically they have surrendered common type efficiency and Non Stop Pacific coverage for the expense another type. Not to mention higher fuel burn, higher TBO etc etc
What value have they have put on the short field performance?

junior.VH-LFA 31st Mar 2019 15:36

There’s plenty of valid reasons for selection. Air Force has done type acquisitions pretty well in the last decade.


lucille 31st Mar 2019 23:17

Short field performance is over rated. The list of “shorter fields” which have the required minimum PCN to enable these aircraft to operate from will be not be extensive.
From memory, the 650s ACN was around 30 and the first thing you checked when going off the beaten track to pre war, colonial built runways in Africa. I’m guessing the Pacific will not be different?

Petropavlovsk 31st Mar 2019 23:35

PCN's ? Exemptions are always available for a number of T/O and Landing's over a given period of time.
The G650 has no real country airport practicality..
As an example I think from memory and I may be wrong; the Lear 60 has the highest tyre pressure in civil use other than a B747-400ER ? and that would generally mean about a dozen or so airports in Australia would be suitable for a Lear 60. There is few of the type on the civil register and they seem to fly to aerodromes where PCN exemptions would be important...
Oddly enough, I think the RAAF do get it right in the VIP department. 5500nm range?

ramble on 1st Apr 2019 01:17

5500nm in the back of a 7x or a G550....let me think.
Dassault make a great flying product for the front end but it’s not an intercontinental aircraft.
Ask the F/As where they store catering or rest on a 5500nm leg in a 7X.
Acquisition was done by people with no experience in either.
Dassault gave me my grey hair.
And I can smell the stink of the chemical lav after 12 hours as I type.

neville_nobody 1st Apr 2019 02:01


​​​​​ There’s plenty of valid reasons for selection. Air Force has done type acquisitions pretty well in the last decade​​
What are the top 5 reasons for getting an extra type? Other than a free junket to France every six months for Sim Training? Or are we going to buy a sim as well?

When you already have another suitable aircraft sitting in the hanger why on earth would you go and purchase an entirely new type?

junior.VH-LFA 1st Apr 2019 02:21


Originally Posted by neville_nobody (Post 10435352)


What are the top 5 reasons for getting an extra type? Other than a free junket to France every six months for Sim Training? Or are we going to buy a sim as well?

When you already have another suitable aircraft sitting in the hanger why on earth would you go and purchase an entirely new type?

what suitable type is “in the hangar?”

The challenger needs to be replaced. The G550 is an entirely different purpose specific platform, which will not share crew or facilities. The idea that somehow it would be a level of commonality is a myth.

neville_nobody 1st Apr 2019 02:36

Other than parts, maintenance, training, cost effectiveness of simulators just to name a few.

Sure two different squadrons may operate them but I just can't understand why you would go and buy another type in the same class of aircraft. Even if ACN or TODR is an issue, how many airports are we talking about?

ramble on 1st Apr 2019 03:50

What a wasted opportunity for taking advantage of the obvious efficiencies.

josephfeatherweight 1st Apr 2019 11:06


Originally Posted by ramble on (Post 10435327)
5500nm in the back of a 7x or a G550....let me think.
Dassault make a great flying product for the front end but it’s not an intercontinental aircraft.
Ask the F/As where they store catering or rest on a 5500nm leg in a 7X.
Acquisition was done by people with no experience in either.
Dassault gave me my grey hair.
And I can smell the stink of the chemical lav after 12 hours as I type.

I agree with your sentiments. Personally, I reckon the 7X was a terrible decision, especially given the commitment to the G550s had already been made, and I’m not a huge fan of Gulfstreams either!
PS - does the 7X really not have a vacuum loo?

josephfeatherweight 1st Apr 2019 11:16


Originally Posted by junior.VH-LFA (Post 10435358)
The G550 is an entirely different purpose specific platform, which will not share crew or facilities. The idea that somehow it would be a level of commonality is a myth.

Junior, I reckon the sharing of crew could occur with a bit of planning and forethought - and would benefit all.
The training facilities (simulator) could definitely be shared, again with planning and forethought.
Parts/maintenance sharing would potentially be problematic as I understand the Surveillance aircraft vs VIP aircraft would be on different airworthiness/maintenance regimes - but that could have been resolved/worked around with some effort also.



cattletruck 1st Apr 2019 11:50

Has the location of the aerial refuelling probe been finalised on the W-2085? Knowing how deep IAI go with repurposing existing frames I'm having trouble accepting the W-2085 shares much commonality with the corporate version other than the basics. Considering the high sticker price of this package deal I wouldn't be surprised if they came with a huge number of caveats on the what/when/how that can be done to them including swapping bits with more mortal G550's.

ftrplt 1st Apr 2019 12:00

change of mind

Global Aviator 1st Apr 2019 12:11

Is there a difference in the flight deck between the surveillance mode and standard?

I was told the RSAF guys use a corporate 550 for training.

With that in mind why could one not fly both?

ftrplt 1st Apr 2019 12:19

change of mind

junior.VH-LFA 1st Apr 2019 12:31


Originally Posted by josephfeatherweight (Post 10435604)

Junior, I reckon the sharing of crew could occur with a bit of planning and forethought - and would benefit all.
The training facilities (simulator) could definitely be shared, again with planning and forethought.
Parts/maintenance sharing would potentially be problematic as I understand the Surveillance aircraft vs VIP aircraft would be on different airworthiness/maintenance regimes - but that could have been resolved/worked around with some effort also.



There could be one way crew swaps. The time required to get appropriate security requirements and doctrinal stuff sorted the other way would be problematic at best.

Sim is probably the biggest aspect, to my knowledge neither A/C is getting one.

The thing with this, like everything in defence related acquisition is those that know know and won’t say a word, and those who don’t usually don’t have the information to arrive at the “right” decision.

Either way, it sure does look like a nice jet!

pelosh 2nd Apr 2019 10:49

Could be a little French gift after the purchase of a bunch of submarines....
Just to give a taste and open the door to more falcon sales....
Just a thought.....happened in the past....

josephfeatherweight 2nd Apr 2019 20:38


Originally Posted by pelosh (Post 10436479)
Could be a little French gift after the purchase of a bunch of submarines....
Just to give a taste and open the door to more falcon sales....
Just a thought.....happened in the past....

Actually, you might be on the money there - I did hear the 7Xs (well, the lease anyway...) came pretty cheap.

Vref+5 2nd Apr 2019 23:15

VIP fleet has been leased since the 80’s, an entirely different acquisition program to purchasing a platform outright. Gunnedah, Halls Creek, Hamilton VIC, some of the short strips used by 34. Another advantage of the Falcons are higher MLW vs BOW, means you can carry more fuel, payload into tight strips, especially where there is no Jet A1 available. PCN? If the government wants to come into a regional town to spend cash, do you think the council won’t issue a concession??

A30_737_AEWC 4th Apr 2019 06:05


Originally Posted by chimbu warrior (Post 10434708)
4 x G550's for 2.5 billion; some middleman has seen Australia coming and done nicely out of this.

The 'middleman' as you put it is the US Government FMS program and US contractors behind the design/integration of the capability on behalf of the US Government.

LeadSled 5th Apr 2019 04:27


Originally Posted by josephfeatherweight (Post 10436959)

Actually, you might be on the money there - I did hear the 7Xs (well, the lease anyway...) came pretty cheap.

Folks,
Without "the facts", who knows.
But one thing is certain, from the pilot or engineering point of view, the 7X is an outstanding aircraft, as are its predecessors and Dassault contemporaries.
And the Dassault company is, itself, quite a fascinating story, a living testimony to its founder-- how, with brains and determination, a small independent company can survive and prosper in an era of "Big Government" and nationalisation.
Tootle pip!!

Rudder 7th Apr 2019 05:25

When was the tender to establish best value for money or aircraft suitability?

junior.VH-LFA 7th Apr 2019 08:57


Originally Posted by Rudder (Post 10441231)
When was the tender to establish best value for money or aircraft suitability?

https://australianaviation.com.au/20...ntractor-role/

Stop clutching at straws.

TBM-Legend 8th Apr 2019 11:35

Its official: Three Falcon 7X to replace the CL604's third quarter on 2019 to coincide with end of CL604 leases. Good choice.

A30_737_AEWC 9th Apr 2019 07:03

Do we know under what contract the Falcon 7Xs services are being acquired/provided ? Is it under the existing arrangement with NG ? Or is there a new contractor on the block ? Apparently Dassault offered the Falcon 7X to both contractors who were shortlisted for the ongoing/future provision of SPA/VIP aircraft services.

https://australianaviation.com.au/20...aaf-vip-fleet/

What I'm really asking is who was the preferred contractor for the award of this contract:

Replacement Special Purpose Aircraft (SPA) Transport Service - Managing Contractor
https://www.tenders.gov.au/?event=pu...A84007338AE512

MustangRG 10th Apr 2019 11:49

My understanding is the two shortlisted Managing Contractors both backed away from the contract.

Petropavlovsk 2nd Jun 2019 05:00

A56-002
 
The second RAAF Falcon 7X left France yesterday and currently overnight in India. A56-002

patty50 17th Jun 2019 01:39

Is the falcon already up and at work? Saw CNS-SYD REGENT92 then to CBR as REGENT94 this morning.

Thought I read Q3 2019 it would be operational? Seems remarkably quick for a new type.

d_concord 17th Jun 2019 02:53

No tender process for selection of aircraft. No best value for money process for competing aircraft. Just how it works now.

TBM-Legend 17th Jun 2019 03:53


No tender process for selection of aircraft. No best value for money process for competing aircraft. Just how it works now.
Not so. There was a tender which included aircraft and support. The aircraft, like the Challengers and BBJ are leased. Northrop Grumman won...


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