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-   -   Beach moth (https://www.pprune.org/pacific-general-aviation-questions/618222-beach-moth.html)

Sunfish 13th Feb 2019 03:55

How does that apply to an experimental aircraft for which there is no data?

Vag277 13th Feb 2019 05:36

Sunfish

The purpose of the Phase 1 flight test programme is to establish that data for the particular aircraft.

Tankengine 13th Feb 2019 07:40


Originally Posted by Sunfish (Post 10388341)
How does that apply to an experimental aircraft for which there is no data?

Stall the f$&# out of it and add 0.3?

+ what Vag277 said. ;)

roundsounds 13th Feb 2019 10:55


Originally Posted by cowl flaps (Post 10387687)
It's hard to believe that the Tigers were once used for crop dusting.
So under powered that I can't imagine them carrying much of a load. Minimum fuel would be the first consideration.

The owner / CFI who taught me to fly in 1970, - (Wally Knight, Nepean Flying School, Camden), actually did crop dusting in Tigers in his younger days.

Wally told me about him spinning one in during ag ops. Lived to fly another day, he only left the earth a couple of years ago - well into his 90s.

roundsounds 13th Feb 2019 11:09


Originally Posted by Ex FSO GRIFFO (Post 10387510)
Hey 'aroa'
I have heard it said, in the most 'hallowed halls' of 'Tiger Moth' knowledge, that the 'real' cause for that one, may have been a 'delamination' of the spar (s) due to the ageing of the 'animal based' glue holding said laminations...….

i.e. The 'slats' had nothing to do with it...……

And, being a 'DH-82A' owner, I am inclined to give it some credence...…

'Old' history now, and unable to be substantiated either way.....but...….

Cheers

there’s more to that story..,
that was VH-TMK, it had been involved in an accident in Victoria a few years earlier which included the bottom right wing hitting a fence post. Despite the upper right wing being inspected it had sustained damage and it failed during recovery from a loop and the rest of the wings failed as did the tie rods. I took a lot of interest in that accident as I had flown the aircraft for several hundred hours with the previous owner doing flight training and joyflights.
ATSB

t_cas 13th Feb 2019 11:15


Originally Posted by sheppey (Post 10387638)
Is it illegal to deliberately approach at a speed less than Vref or 1.3Vs? Does that risk CASA legal action if caught in the act? Just wondering..

Not if you are flying an Airbus.

aroa 13th Feb 2019 11:23

Griffo...you may be right. crack, delamination due old glue, may have got that wrong. Was by the cable hole the starting point ?
I was told the story many years ago, of that accident by the Tiger builder who used to live at Northam WA and was involved in the investigation...I guess it must also be in an ATSB file someplace.

Local hero since passed pioneered air ag in FNQ starting with Tigers. Crashed a few, one into a big tree and survived. "Hairy" anecdotes abound.. All part of the individualism of the early solo operators, living on their 'edge'

Centaurus 13th Feb 2019 11:59


It's hard to believe that the Tigers were once used for crop dusting.
So under powered that I can't imagine them carrying much of a load. Minimum fuel would be the first consideration.
In 1956, I was among several RAAF QFI's from No 1 BFTS Uranquinty NSW, that quietly took rec leave and went crop dusting with Air Farm P/L based at Tamworth. At Uranquinty we instructed on Tiger Moths and Wirraways and easily met the minimum requirements of 500 hours on Tiger Moths stipulated in the short term contract with Air Farm. The manager was Basil Brown who founded East West Airlines. We did two weeks at a time flying crop duster Tiger Moths which had a hopper instead of the front seat. It was hard and dirty work often flying eight hours a day but the pay was good. We operated from strips around the Armidale area where density altitudes could be 6000 ft. The Tiger Moth was not a good sea level performer at the best of times so 6000 ft DA really stretched the friendship.

We regularly flew (staggered was more like it) with 450 lbs super phosphate in the front which was the equivalent of 2.5 passengers in the front seat. The CG was probably way out of the forward limit and we needed full back cheese-cutter (mechanical elevator trim) for take off. Full throttle was needed to fly. Every landing was seriously short field technique to minimize ground roll as the Tiger Moth did not come with the luxury of wheel brakes. But it had a tail skid which acted as a brake if you kept the stick hard back.

Minimum fuel was unheard of. You filled the tank first flight of the day usually 0600 and topped it as required during the day. I don't know what the max structural weight for take off in the Tiger Moth but two pilots and full fuel was normal for sea level. We certainly exceeded that for every take off and then some.

On my first take off with full hopper at Guyra NSW, I could barely maintain 200 feet to the drop zone even with full throttle. After having spread the load over the drop zone I returned for a short field landing and pulled up at the loader who quickly poured super phosphate into the hopper while I kept the engine running at idle (no brakes, remember?). I heard a frightful oath from the loader who happened to be the farmer paying for the load, and saw him point to under the Moth. I cut the engine, removed my dust covered flying goggles, and climbed out.

I then understood why he was so pissed off. Being a novice crop duster on my first operational mission it turned out I had forgotten to close the bomb bay doors (the dump valve) after the last run. When the phosphate poured into the hopper it went straight through and poured out at the bottom on to the ground. My zero fuel weight was thus only me and my Tiger. No payload. The farmer gave me a dirty look and made me shovel the stuff from the ground into the hopper. That was back breaking work. Phosphate was expensive so I guess he had a point.

I finished my two week agreement and went back to Uranquinty a bit richer financially, but to the relative safety of teaching sprog trainee pilots.
Postscript: About six QFI's were involved at various times with the Air Farm flying. The Commanding Officer of No 1 BFTS, Wing Commander Keith Bolitho DFC didn't know about it. We just took recreation leave for two weeks at a time. Some recreation that's for sure.

One of our bunch was Flight Sergeant Ted Dillon. Ted had hurt his ankle playing football and had it strapped up with plaster. He heard we were making money crop dusting so he hacked off the plaster and went to Tamworth. He pranged a Tiger Moth while crop dusting and broke the other leg. On arrival back at Uranquinty, questions were asked about his two legs being strapped up instead of the one when he had gone on leave. The CO twigged something was fishy about his pilots disappearing for two weeks and coming back with more folding money than when they left. Add that to Ted's broken leg in mysterious circumstances. We all admitted guilt. The CO threatened us with Courts Martial if we did that again.

donpizmeov 13th Feb 2019 17:09

What a fantastic career centurious. What changes you saw, tiger moths, P51s, the Avro Lincoln, 737s . Incredible . I am truly jealous . Such variety will never happen again .

LeadSled 13th Feb 2019 22:10


Originally Posted by aroa (Post 10385766)
Can do. Made for 80 octane. 95 mogas +additive. Never had a vapour lock problem.
Other folk may have used and had alternative
Life's a beach. Pleased to see it not busted. good one

If one was to peruse the original specifications for the aircraft fitted with a DH Gypsy Major engine, you would find words to the effect: " Use a good grade of motor spirit, well filtered".
This engine long pre-dated the use of "lead" in petrol, and the evolution of "high octane" fuels. "Back in the day", petrol would have been around 60-65 octane. Indeed, the introduction of "leaded" fuel cause all sorts of problems with engines that had brass cylinder heads, they had to be swapped for aluminium heads.
Tootle pip!!

LeadSled 13th Feb 2019 22:32


Originally Posted by t_cas (Post 10388659)
Not if you are flying an Airbus.

tcas,
That's not quite the whole story, is it.
The methods of certifying approach speeds in modern large transport aircraft are not based on 1.3CAS, but the way they are done, the results are almost the same as if it was based on 1.3CAS.
Why the difference --- because stalling a modern large transport aircraft for real can and probably will do structural damage to the aircraft.
The last Boeing aircraft certified based on actual stalling was the B707.
Tootle pip!!


Vag277 13th Feb 2019 23:45

LS - it's a Gipsy. DH purists are offended!

Bravo Romeo Alpha 14th Feb 2019 00:30

I learnt to fly in the Tiger at the RQAC in 1955 - my last year of High School.. We often landed on the beach on South or North Stradbroke Island so my instructor could have a smoke - not many beachgoers then. I continued in the Tiger to get my Commercial Licence. No radios, naviads etc but at least I learnt to recover from spins and unusual attitudes under the hood - with a very limited pannel.

A few of the RQAC Tigers had slats - made short field landings very short! Unfortunately the RQAC and its Tigers are gone.

megan 14th Feb 2019 01:15


LS - it's a Gipsy. DH purists are offended!
Well, they better get unoffended. The spelling from circa 1930's it seems that both means were accepted in the advertising of aircraft. The RAAF pilot notes of February 1944 spell it as "Gypsy", and calls for 73 Octane, though de Havilland used "Gipsy". Wonder how the alternate spelling came about so early in the power plants life?. Both means of spelling refer to the same particular group of people ie alternate spellings of the same word. I get where you're coming from though re purists, better tell the RAAF and all those 1930 era people they got it wrong I guess.

If you look at this article both spellings are used.

https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarch...0-%200477.html

Vag277 14th Feb 2019 03:26

The correct answer, as specified by Sir Geoffrey de Havilland, is Gipsy. Any other spelling is incorrect. This is stated in his autobiography "Sky Fever" and all DH advertising refers to Gipsy engines. The RAAF pilot Notes are wrong. In addition, the Gipsy was not named after a group of people but a moth (lepidoptera type) as were most of the DH single piston engine aircraft.

LeadSled 14th Feb 2019 05:20


Originally Posted by Vag277 (Post 10389286)
LS - it's a Gipsy. DH purists are offended!

Sorry, my mistake, should know better after being the proprietor of several over the years.
The said purists get quite NOOJ (nose out of joint) when you point at it was a Renault engine originally, not a DH design, hence the metric threads.
Tootle pip!!

megan 15th Feb 2019 00:03


the Gipsy was not named after a group of people but a moth (lepidoptera type) as were most of the DH single piston engine aircraft
As a stand alone word "Gipsy" refers to a group of certain people, not a moth, though it can be seen where de Havilland derived the word, as a contraction of the "Gipsy Moth" aka the moth Lymantria dispar, which is also known as the "Gypsy Moth". Irrespective of the spelling used, both are referring to the same thing, though de Havilland used the "I" format. Purists can get their knickers in a knot over semantics, I am one. :p

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lymantria_dispar_dispar

megan 17th Feb 2019 05:30

After a little research I find the entire world, save for the UK, call/spell the particular moth as "Gypsy Moth", the UK being the only English speaking nation to spell it as "Gipsy Moth". Trust the Brits to be the odd man out, but one has to ask why? Days of Empire superiority? Ref page 12 common names.

https://www.fs.fed.us/foresthealth/t...antria_web.pdf

Brits have now fallen into line.

https://www.forestresearch.gov.uk/to...es/gypsy-moth/

cattletruck 17th Feb 2019 07:09

"Gipsy Moth" or "Gypsy Moth" - one of those used to be my password at work last year - now I know why it would fail sometimes.

Should have used "Puss Moth" instead.

Vag277 17th Feb 2019 07:45

megan
Regardless they are still a Gipsy engine and the DH 60 is the Gipsy Moth


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