Just a point of order. I would say most IFR flights in the US pick up their clearance on the ground. If they are departing from one of the 500+ airports with a control tower they'll get the clearance from ground control or clearance delivery. If they are departing from an uncontrolled airport there are ways to get the clearance over the phone or through a remote communications outlet. If they do depart VFR they'll contact ATC shortly after leaving the traffic pattern Certainly well before 17 thousand.

You can now return to whatever it is you're talking about.

I don't know what Dick is suggesting, but as a point of reference, in the US, which is relevant as Dick keeps referring to the US, there is no uncontrolled IFR in VMC in class E airspace, an aircraft flying in Class E airspace without an IFR clearance is VFR, and must comply with all the rules for VFR flight (cloud clearances, meteorological conditions, etc.

Also, for the vast majority of the US, Class E airspace begins at 700 or 1200 ft AGL. there are areas in the Rocky Mountain Reigon and in Alaska, where Class G airspace exists above those altitudes, but that's more the exception.

I'd have thought it would be more incumbent of one to find out the location of and avoid the aircraft that's preventing one getting a clearance. Or are does one just blast on up looking out the window?

In the absence of me taking the time to type a description of how I identify the location of the other traffic and arrange to not hit it, which is not relevant to the point I was making, I suppose that one approach might be to assume without evidence that I wouldn't take any precautions. I'm not sure why one might choose that approach though, given that it reflects somewhat poorly on the person making unwarranted assumptions and groundless accusations. KWIM?

Derfred, you are a very very very naughty boy! :E

Rather than debating the current airspace structure, why not debate the new structure from May 2019? I'm too new to post a link but search for Airservices airspace modernisation.

Feedback finishes in 2 1/2 weeks. I must have missed that email... Good one!

Airservices - Airspace modernisation
Link for those looking.

More Class E is the wrong solution to a problem noone has.

Are there that many VFR pilots needing to access between FL180 and FL245 that that becomes a selling point?

I missed this earlier. MarkerInbound is correct, it is simply not true in the US that "...most pilots on an IFR flight plan" depart without clearance and climb to 17,500 before picking up a clearance. It is true that this is a perfectly legal option, if the weather permits. But it is not, by any stretch of the imagination what "most" do. To begin with, most part 121 airlines in the US are not permitted to to this. I fly for a 121 airline which operates in remote areas. Because of the nature of our operations, and the fact that we are a cargo only airline, we have approval to depart VFR, and pick up an IFR clearance when airborne. Among US Part 121 airlines that is the exception rather than the rule. Outside the airline world, it is still not true to say that "most" operate this way. The vast majority of pilots on a flight where they will be climbing above 17,500 and getting an IFR clearance will be requesting the clearance as soon as practical. There are very few places in the US where you won't be in radar coverage and within VHF radio communications with ATC well below 17,500. If that is true, and it is, even in Alaska, why wouldn't you pick up your IFR clearance sooner rather than later, and begin receiving separation from other IFR traffic, and advisories for VFR traffic? The vast majority, of course, will do exactly that, including those who have departed an uncontrolled airport under VFR, due to unavailability of an IFR clearance for whatever reason. Yes, in the US it is legal to depart VFR when the weather is VMC. Yes, it is legal to continue climbing to 17,500 before getting an IFR clearance, if VFR weather persists that high. It is patently absurd to claim, as Dick has done that "most" IFR flights are operated this way.

I don't know. But if positive control airspace begins at FL180, then "nobody flies VFR above 180" becomes a self fulfilling prophesy, doesn't it?

Naturally, however Airservices regard it as particularly important in the J curve. Is it? Are there so many VFR batting against the FL180 ceiling that they are blocking the sun?

IFR in VMC at 8500AMSL. Dude ! look out the f#cken window! Don't hit anything! Sweet as bro...not that frickin hard is it?