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-   -   [AUS] Night Rating (https://www.pprune.org/pacific-general-aviation-questions/613757-aus-night-rating.html)

Sierra117 26th Sep 2018 13:30
[AUS] Night Rating
 
Hey guys, heading up to Darwin next week to find that elusive first job. I did my MECIR in March so as you can see I've burned through half of it saving for the move.

So I guess the question is do I spend an estimated 2-3k+ on a night raiting or do I try and find a job with less than 6 month till and IPC and hopefully make the company pay.

Mind you the last time I flew was March (either paying 300+ an hour for private hire or saving for the trip) so a night raiting might provide good top end experience.

Thanks

Capn Bloggs 26th Sep 2018 13:39
No, I won't...

Sierra117 26th Sep 2018 13:50
Originally Posted by Capn Bloggs (Post 10258965)
No, I won't...
No offence but would you be able to elaborate?

pilotchute 26th Sep 2018 14:46
I doubt any operator is going to hire you as an IFR pilot for your first job. Therefore they will make you pay for a renewal.

gileraguy 26th Sep 2018 19:50
and you may want to have someone else check the spelling on your job applications, as you have misspelled the subject of your post twice...

Sierra117 26th Sep 2018 23:46
Originally Posted by pilotchute (Post 10259024)
I doubt any operator is going to hire you as an IFR pilot for your first job. Therefore they will make you pay for a renewal.
I guess what I want to know is that will they even consider me with less than 6 months left till and IPC. I know my first job won't be IFR but from what I've been told that the ability to use NVFR in it is more important at this stage, Hence why I'm considering doing a stand alone night rating.

IFEZ 27th Sep 2018 02:38
Sierra117, why would a NVFR rating cost you $5K+..? Seems a lot considering you only just did a MECIR. Also, have to agree with gileraguy regarding your spelling. You need to make sure your spelling and grammar is spot on in a job application. It may not seem like a big deal to some, but most employers I know wouldn't even give you a chance for an interview based on a mistake riddled application. You say you haven't flown at all since March..? You may be better off spending a bit to keep yourself current before you go up there. Can't say I'd like to tackle a check flight having not flown for more than 6 months! Where are you currently based..?

Sierra117 27th Sep 2018 02:42
Originally Posted by IFEZ (Post 10259459)
Sierra117, why would a NVFR rating cost you $5K+..? Seems a lot considering you only just did a MECIR. Also, have to agree with gileraguy regarding your spelling. You need to make sure your spelling and grammar is spot on in a job application. It may not seem like a big deal to some, but most employers I know wouldn't even give you a chance for an interview based on a mistake riddled application. You say you haven't flown at all since March..? You may be better off spending a bit to keep yourself current before you go up there. Can't say I'd like to tackle a check flight having not flown for more than 6 months! Where are you currently based..?
Sydney, I did do an hour of just some general recency 3 weeks ago but you know how expensive dual hire is. I think my resume is fine as I did manage to get a call back from a company regarding an interview about a month ago but I made the mistake of asking for 2 weeks extra to do the move and I never heard back from them.

drpixie 27th Sep 2018 04:15
It's used to be that holding a CIFR was sufficient to qualify you for a NVFR - might be worth checking that with whoever did your test.

Duh - I was thinking of a PIFR. NVFR rating was always separate.

But thinking of PIFR, would be worth getting one, if it's just a paperwork application - much easier to keep (legally) current and useful for getting company aircraft back after dark (as private, non-commercial flight). Just take care, plenty of PIFR people have low levels of currency and experience.

Sierra117 27th Sep 2018 04:32
Originally Posted by drpixie (Post 10259504)
It's used to be that holding a CIFR was sufficient to qualify you for a NVFR - might be worth checking that with whoever did your test.
it is but the thing is that the night rating only lasts for as long as you've got a valid CIFR which is 1 year and I've burned through over 6 months of that. It's either do an IPC in 5 months or do a NVFR and then I've got 2 years on that.

717tech 27th Sep 2018 04:33
$5k sounds insanely expensive for a NVFR rating. Don’t you need five hours night for a MECIR? I vaguely remember something along those lines...

Sierra117 27th Sep 2018 04:52
Originally Posted by 717tech (Post 10259516)
$5k sounds insanely expensive for a NVFR rating. Don’t you need five hours night for a MECIR? I vaguely remember something along those lines...
I was probably way off the mark with price as I was thinking about a zero to hero NVFR. If it's still around 2-3k or something like that that's still money I really don't want to spend if I can help it.

Capt Fathom 27th Sep 2018 05:33
It's used to be that holding a CIFR was sufficient to qualify you for a NVFR
As long as you have done the night cross countries required for the NVFR. That wasn't done as a part of an Instrument Rating training unless you
made a point to include them. Which is what some people did back in the day....

I did see a website today advertising NVFR for just over $5K. That was all the flying, some SIMs, briefings and Test.

Munz 27th Sep 2018 06:45
Originally Posted by Sierra117 (Post 10259515)
it is but the thing is that the night rating only lasts for as long as you've got a valid CIFR which is 1 year and I've burned through over 6 months of that. It's either do an IPC in 5 months or do a NVFR and then I've got 2 years on that.
...and you can only use the NVFR privileges of your instrument rating if the rating is kept current (i.e. single pilot flight of 1 hour in the last six months with an instrument approach; 3 instrument approaches in the last 90 days; IPC every 12 months). Just because your IPC is valid, doesn't mean you can use the NVFR privileges of it!

Additionally, as part 61 specifies, you can use the night circuits from your instrument rating for the issue of your NVFR, however, you cannot use IFR cross country flights for your NVFR, as the 5 hours cross country has to be done VFR.

Sierra117 27th Sep 2018 07:01
Originally Posted by Munz (Post 10259578)
...and you can only use the NVFR privileges of your instrument rating if the rating is kept current (i.e. single pilot flight of 1 hour in the last six months with an instrument approach; 3 instrument approaches in the last 90 days; IPC every 12 months). Just because your IPC is valid, doesn't mean you can use the NVFR privileges of it!

Additionally, as part 61 specifies, you can use the night circuits from your instrument rating for the issue of your NVFR, however, you cannot use IFR cross country flights for your NVFR, as the 5 hours cross country has to be done VFR.
I'm fairly certain you can conduct NVFR ops while being outside general recency for and CIFR, as 61.870(2) states

>(2) The holder is authorised to pilot an aircraft under the IFR only if the holder has
conducted at least 3 instrument approach operations within the previous 90 days
in an aircraft or an approved flight simulation training device for the purpose.

You should find that it says "Under the IFR..." for all the general recency in .870

Since we're not under the IFR we can conduct NVFR but feel free to correct me.

josephfeatherweight 27th Sep 2018 07:35
This thread highlights the problems with our regs - “qualified, educated” contributors and yet everyone only has a rough idea what the actual requirements are. There is a mishmash of “what the rules used to be” and “what I think the rules say now”. I don’t blame the contributors (who are just trying to help!) - I blame the system.

Sierra117 27th Sep 2018 08:45
Originally Posted by josephfeatherweight (Post 10259618)
This thread highlights the problems with our regs - “qualified, educated” contributors and yet everyone only has a rough idea what the actual requirements are. There is a mishmash of “what the rules used to be” and “what I think the rules say now”. I don’t blame the contributors (who are just trying to help!) - I blame the system.
and my OG question was buried underneath all of it kek

junior.VH-LFA 27th Sep 2018 09:18
Originally Posted by Sierra117 (Post 10259679)
and my OG question was buried underneath all of it kek
Did you really just use the word kek?

Sierra117 27th Sep 2018 09:58
Originally Posted by junior.VH-LFA (Post 10259709)
Did you really just use the word kek?
Should I have used lol instead?

desert goat 27th Sep 2018 12:17
Just get on the road and start knocking on doors. Until you do that, it won't make an iota of difference either way. Save the worrying about all this stuff until it actually becomes an issue in six months time when your IPC gets close to expiring. The operators you approach will soon tell you if it's an issue, so why overthink it? Just do the trip, knock on lots of doors and have fun.

josephfeatherweight 27th Sep 2018 14:38
What does “kek” mean?

Sierra117 27th Sep 2018 23:03
Originally Posted by josephfeatherweight (Post 10259916)
What does “kek” mean?
It's interchangeable with lol, the internet picked it up as back in day of world of warcraft of a player of a different faction said lol to you the text would come out as kek

triadic 28th Sep 2018 01:01
When I was in Darwin, those that came north looking for work at the end of the dry season could often expect to pack supermarket shelves until the start of the dry season when things started to rev up again. You might be lucky, but you need to have the patience to knock on as many doors as you can find and get to know the folk there. Also keep you eyes out for jobs in other parts of the top-end and the Kimberley's. Suggest that you need to be current on at least a C210 or C206/PA32 etc. Good Luck!

flying-spike 28th Sep 2018 02:38
The criticism of your spelling is on point. It might give an insight into a few attitudes that an operator will want to assess, i.e.
(1) Attention to detail (pretty important in this job)
(2) Setting a high personal standard (doing the right thing when nobody else is around to judge you. Think remote, single pilot base)
(3) not accepting other’s lower standards as justification for your own mistakes
(4) Acceptance of criticism

I’ve employed pilots for these situations and these are traits I would look for.

mattyj 28th Sep 2018 20:42
You’re gonna need to get over it spike dude..spelling, grammar and punctuation aren’t taught at schools these days so your pool of suitable candidates is quickly drying up..

also if you’re as tough as nails like you’re suggesting then you’re gonna need a safe space built next to your interview room..walls preferably painted in relaxing neutral tones

flying-spike 29th Sep 2018 00:39
Originally Posted by mattyj (Post 10261161)
You’re gonna need to get over it spike dude..spelling, grammar and punctuation aren’t taught at schools these days so your pool of suitable candidates is quickly drying up..

also if you’re as tough as nails like you’re suggesting then you’re gonna need a safe space built next to your interview room..walls preferably painted in relaxing neutral tones
Why all the venom? My days of recruiting pilots are long gone. (as you should have realised from the tense in my post). Many of my peers share the same sentiments I expressed and are still in a position to hire. Ignore them as you see fit. As for your contention that I think I am “tough as nails”? I made no such inference. But if you would like to switch from keyboard warrior and avail yourself to some contact counselling I would be happy to oblige. Your call.
P.S. That was me being nice.

ddoth 29th Sep 2018 04:59
Spelling and grammar a a decent requirement for many (generally based on previous people hired). A simple mistake is just that but if there is a trend there may be bigger things at play, as others have mentioned. In my admittedly small sample, I've found links between it and those that can't follow paperwork requirements.

There are still a few companies up there that don't require MECIR or a NVFR, however, an increasing amount are wanting canditates to have at least a night rating.
You'll end up doing some supervised flying before you're let loose so I wouldn't worry about it to be honest. As long as the piece of paper says you have the rating, you're good. Definitely wouldn't hurt to get some recency back, rusty flying is easily picked up by those that will take you for a check flight.

Sunfish 29th Sep 2018 05:57
Spelling, grammar and punctuation not taught and obsolete? How do these morons expect to read an aircraft manual and checklist? Let alone write up a defect coherently?

B sur to chk ful levs?

Dnt xcd 120 nots?

Gr dn?

Engn msses.

As the two ronnies sang, a comma can be important, as in; "What is this thing called, love?"

I guess it doesn't matter so much with reading regulations; they are incomprehensible to anyone.

Sierra117 29th Sep 2018 07:01
Originally Posted by Sunfish (Post 10261369)
Spelling, grammar and punctuation not taught and obsolete? How do these morons expect to read an aircraft manual and checklist? Let alone write up a defect coherently?

B sur to chk ful levs?

Dnt xcd 120 nots?

Gr dn?

Engn msses.

As the two ronnies sang, a comma can be important, as in; "What is this thing called, love?"

I guess it doesn't matter so much with reading regulations; they are incomprehensible to anyone.
I will say that we're looking at two extremes of the spectrum and I think that's where this argument is currently in right now.

Spelling, Grammer and so on are important but if you start splitting hairs over one mispelt word then that's where I see some people might have a problem.

Generally speaking if you've gone through year 12 and you've done a CPL and such you're not going to be illiterate.

I mean no offence to you but that's where you might have missed the point. That's understandable though as the other guy was a little broad with that obsolete comment but I think I know where he's coming from.

flying-spike 29th Sep 2018 07:37
Originally Posted by Sierra117 (Post 10261389)
I will say that we're looking at two extremes of the spectrum and I think that's where this argument is currently in right now.

Spelling, Grammer and so on are important but if you start splitting hairs over one mispelt word then that's where I see some people might have a problem.

Generally speaking if you've gone through year 12 and you've done a CPL and such you're not going to be illiterate.

I mean no offence to you but that's where you might have missed the point. That's understandable though as the other guy was a little broad with that obsolete comment but I think I know where he's coming from.
My comments were not intended as a criticism of you Sierra. More as helpful advice. Any chief pilot worth his salt will be assessing the attitude of a candidate as much as technical skill. They are entrusting you with their aircraft and their reputation, sometimes from a distance. They need to know that you can understand and accept guidance when it is given. Your licence is a licence to learn and, believe me, it never stops. Best of luck with the trip North.

Derfred 29th Sep 2018 09:13
Spelling, Grammer and so on are important
I think you will find the word is “grammar”...

but if you start splitting hairs over one mispelt word
I think you will find the word is “misspelt”....


:O:O:O

To be honest though, if I were reviewing a job application with numerous spelling and grammar errors, I would be asking myself, “why”?

Is it that the applicant lacks attention to detail? That could affect my decision to employ them as a pilot. Poor attention to detail costs lives in this profession.

Is it that the applicant is poor at spelling and grammar? That may not affect my decision, although I would be seeking to establish that the applicant can otherwise read and communicate effectively. Poor communication skills cost lives in this profession.

Is it that the applicant cares so little about working for me that they wrote the application drunk and didn’t even bother to proof read it (or ask someone else to)? That would possibly affect my decision.

I know a very good chief pilot of a company who can’t spell, but he’s smart enough to get someone else to write his AOC applications to CASA.

Good luck in Darwin. When I was in your position, I just moved there and started knocking on doors. Then I got a job in a bar which paid enough to keep my flying current until I got a job. Futhermore, for what it’s worth, I had an expired CIR and no night rating. My first employer didn’t care. What’s more, I never actually applied to him. I just happened to meet him in a bar up there, and we got talking. That was a long time ago, but I would think a similar strategy would still be reasonable.

All the best, Fred.

Sierra117 29th Sep 2018 09:15
Originally Posted by Derfred (Post 10261457)


I think you will find the word is “misspelt”....

:O:O:O
I give up .

Derfred 29th Sep 2018 09:37
Originally Posted by Sierra117 (Post 10261459)
I give up .
Ha ha, don’t give up, I’ve just edited my post. :)

Pinky the pilot 29th Sep 2018 10:56
To be honest though, if I were reviewing a job application with numerous spelling and grammar errors, I would be asking myself, “why”?

Is it that the applicant lacks attention to detail? That could affect my decision to employ them as a pilot. Poor attention to detail costs lives in this profession.
A point of view shared by one of my previous Employers a long time back, Derfred.:ok:
Some years ago in another thread, this subject was raised and I made a post which related an incident where my then Boss had received a resume from a person who actually would have been offered a job if not for the appalling grammar and spelling in his resume.

He binned the resume purely on the grounds mentioned in the last paragraph of your post quoted above.

I have tried to find the post using the search function but have been unable to locate it. Otherwise I would have quoted it here.


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