PPRuNe Forums

PPRuNe Forums (https://www.pprune.org/)
-   The Pacific: General Aviation & Questions (https://www.pprune.org/pacific-general-aviation-questions-91/)
-   -   Check List Design in GA aircraft - often superfluous (https://www.pprune.org/pacific-general-aviation-questions/613727-check-list-design-ga-aircraft-often-superfluous.html)

sheppey 25th Sep 2018 15:00

Check List Design in GA aircraft - often superfluous
 
The Australian newspaper Tuesday September 25 page 2 has a headline Crash Pilot boasted he did not need pre-flight checks. This was in reference to the ATSB report on the King Air crash at Essendon. On the same page, contributor Byron Bailey under the headline Checklists indispensable to safety describes why checklists are important. He makes an important point, stating "There is a widespread opinion among general aviation pilots that checklist are too long winded, thus increasing the likelihood of missing an item, but this incident shows how vital it is for pilots to take time to action checklists and undergo takeoff emergencies simulator training."
His point is valid especially with regard to current checklist design trends.

Dr Google says: After the crash of the Model 299 on October 30, 1935, the Checklist was introduced by Boeing, as a permanent and mandatory tool, to be used by all pilots in the Boeing fleet.

The original checklists were designed thus as a written before take off drill. There was also a Before Landing drill. The RAF during WW2 emphasized the importance of the before takeoff checks calling them VITAL ACTIONS. Since then checklists have not only been extended to cover before starting engines, but for almost every conceivable situation. To top it all off many flying schools now require their students to even conduct the walk-around inspection using a checklist. Some CASA FOI may even demand additional checklist items to be added even though this is their personal opinion and not a manufacturer's recommendation. This Ppune contributor once saw a roller blind checklist designed by the civilian owner of a former RAAF Winjeel. He had installed a home made roller blind type checklist that had no less than 137 individual checklist items. The first item started with "Good Day" I noticed after a while he dispensed with the checklist altogether.

This writer took over a student for dual instruction whose previous instructor was on holidays. After strapping in, the student apologised by saying he had left his checklist in his car. Asked to start the engine without the crutch of a checklist he was unable to do so. After the flight he was also unable to remember how to close down the engine without reference to a written checklist. He had flown twelve hours in the Cessna 152 yet had no idea how to fly without a checklist to read. The blame fell squarely on his flying instructor.

Most of us learned to fly at flying schools. We are prone to carry over bad habits learned from our instructors. Heavy reliance on checklists that are superfluous can eventually lead to skipping checklists altogether. The philosophy behind the term VITAL ACTIONS Before Take Off needs to be considered and a red pen run through the rest. That way pilots will be less inclined to skip checklists altogether and maybe avoid another disaster like the King Air crash.

mattyj 25th Sep 2018 21:51

Only 12 hours..I’m not surprised! Had he/she flown any other type? When I had 12 hours total tome I had only started the aircraft myself 2 or 3 times! Prior to that my instructor was doing the starts..I didn’t even taxi until we were clear of the flight line for the first 5 hours

drpixie 25th Sep 2018 22:57

Absolutely agree Sheppy - I'm going through this with CASA at the moment. Between the manufacturer + the FOI + CASA's type specialist, the result is not a checklist but an instruction manual. The vital stuff completely lost amongst the dross that has no or little impact on the flight. I'm brave enough to drop the dross, but as all "flight check systems" have to be approved, I see no chance of getting a genuine checklist approved :ugh:

Lapon 25th Sep 2018 23:03

My ab-initio single engine training required me to have all check commited to memory before going solo (I can still remember them all these years later).
From the point of GA multi engine training I have always used checklists however. Most of the GA and smaller turboprop checklists where so long that there was no room for common sense, and addressed items which were seldom of any importance.
The smallest checklist I have ever used is on the largest type I have flown (high capacity jet) 🤔

Capn Bloggs 26th Sep 2018 00:06

They aren't checklists, they are Do lists...

BuzzBox 26th Sep 2018 00:17


Heavy reliance on checklists that are superfluous can eventually lead to skipping checklists altogether. The philosophy behind the term VITAL ACTIONS Before Take Off needs to be considered and a red pen run through the rest.
As Lapon mentioned, the normal checklists used on high capacity aircraft are quite short. For example, on Airbus and Boeing types, the normal procedures are all performed by memory. The checklist simply confirms that the vital actions have been completed.

megan 26th Sep 2018 01:29


Only 12 hours..I’m not surprised! Had he/she flown any other type? When I had 12 hours total tome I had only started the aircraft myself 2 or 3 times! Prior to that my instructor was doing the starts..I didn’t even taxi until we were clear of the flight line for the first 5 hours
If that is the case mattyj it's a sad indictment on the school, in that they were screwing you and your wallet. In my time the average student was solo after eight hours. I do read on these pages of students who have done twenty five hours and still not soloed - something's wrong with the industry.

To top it all off many flying schools now require their students to even conduct the walk-around inspection using a checklist.
Checklists and their content has always been a bone of contention. It might be offered that had the Essendon pilot conscientiously used one during his walk round he would have noticed the trim tab position. Item five on the aircrafts cockpit preflight checklist is set trims to "0", then later calls for a check of the tab during the walk round. Two missed occasions before he has cranked, once strapped in a check of the trim is called for in the prestart, runup and pretake off, making a total of five missed opportunities.

The accident report mentions a checklist paper that I have often referenced, and given the link to here on Pprune. It's the first in the following list, the other links may be of interest, particularly the second in which human performance issues are addressed. The mere fact that you use a checklist may be no saviour, it's how you use it that counts. Failure to use them properly has lead to any number of fatals, DC-9 no flap take off that didn't make it, Helios 737 that failed to pressurise and crashed with the loss of all. Fly safe.

https://human-factors.arc.nasa.gov/f...010-216396.pdf

https://human-factors.arc.nasa.gov/f...people/kd.html

https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/c...9910017830.pdf

https://ti.arc.nasa.gov/m/profile/ad...Checklists.pdf

https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/c...0170005594.pdf

Wiggley 26th Sep 2018 01:38


Originally Posted by drpixie (Post 10258434)
Absolutely agree Sheppy - I'm going through this with CASA at the moment. Between the manufacturer + the FOI + CASA's type specialist, the result is not a checklist but an instruction manual. The vital stuff completely lost amongst the dross that has no or little impact on the flight. I'm brave enough to drop the dross, but as all "flight check systems" have to be approved, I see no chance of getting a genuine checklist approved :ugh:

Quite poor when the operational checklist for an airliner from startup to shutdown literally fits on a single-sided A4 page. The expanded checklist is of course within easy reach, but is only used for abnormal procedures.

sheppey 26th Sep 2018 03:06

A bit of aviation history in checklist design. RAAF Publication No. 416 February 1944 Pilot's Notes for Tiger Moth Aircraft. By Command of the Air Board. Air Force Head-Quarters, Melbourne, S.C.1
Vital Actions before take off:
Elevator Trim neutral.
Throttle Friction nut tight
Mixture control right back to fully rich position.
Fuel cock fully on. Contents sufficient for flight.
Slots unlocked.
Flying controls tested for freedom of movement.


Contrast those items for simplicity with the checklist for the Cessna 172 and Cessna 150 used by one Melbourne flying school.
Trims...set for takeoff.
Throttle friction nut ...set firm
Mixture...rich
Magnetos...on both
Master...On
Primer...in and locked
Fuel...On both
Flaps...Set 0 degrees or 10 degrees for take off.
Instruments...Checked and Set.
Engine instruments...in the green
Switches...Lights etc
Controls..Full, free, correct sense
Hatches & Harness ...secure.


Note one vital check is missing in the flying school checklist. Seats...Secure. That item is listed in the manufacturers Cessna Pilot Information Manual

Seabreeze 26th Sep 2018 03:17

In the early seventies I did my multi instrument rating training at Correll Advanced Flying Training (YMMB). Instructors were mostly ex RAAF or ex airline. They required a check list which was only on two sides of an A4 page.. Actually it was a To Do list, and was used in the same format for every light twin GA type, with info drawn from the AFM. This was common practice then. It was required that all be committed to memory.

On the Normal Procedures side, there was pre start and start, pre takeoff, line up, on take off, after take off, top of climb, cruise, top of descent, preaid, prelanding, PPUFF., and after landing. Under each subsection there were only a few key ToDo items. There was also a small table of key speeds (usually for MTOW at ISA at sealevel), and a short table of fuel capacities, endurances and weights
On the Emergency procedures there was a summary of most key actions that might be needed: EFOTO, EF in cruise, EF during an IF procedure or circuit, securing actions, SE approach, manual gear extension, crossfeed, and a longer list of speeds.

Put into a clear plastic sleeve and left on the aircraft dash, you could very quickly find any key info that you needed on either the Normal or Emergency procedures side. In the sleeve between the two outer pages was a more detailed W&B table, fuel consumption rates at various altitudes and power settings to facilitate quick flight planning, necessary for charter work out in the bush.

I recently looked at a (CASA approved) QRH for a very light training aircraft, and found it was over 60pages long! It included literally hundreds of items, many not even related to operating an aeroplane ( e.g. adjust the seat belt neatly after flight). This new world may create in trainees the idea that it is more important to be able to complete this ridiculously long list of actions (many of which are at best marginally relevant), rather than to focus on the actions and checks needed to operate the aircraft safely and efficiently, and on flying ability. IMO, the present QRH system actually detracts from effective and safe airmanship through distraction via this unnecessary complication. This needs some serious research...

Seabreeze

megan 26th Sep 2018 03:38


This needs some serious research...
The serious research has been done, see some of my links above, a google will provide far, far more. In a career spanning 44 years the only time I ever used a printed checklist was while training with the USN, with all other operators it was memory and flow.

many not even related to operating an aeroplane
You could start an argument about the wisdom of a pre landing gear check on a fixed gear aircraft, everyone will have an opinion one way or the other as to yes or no.

roundsounds 26th Sep 2018 11:27

As mentioned above, most so called checklists used by Flying schools are amplified operating procedures. By far the safest way to operate most aircraft is to accomplish normal procedures from memory, then use a checklist to “check” you have completed the procedure. Flows and / or mnemonics can be used to help with completing the procedure and the checklist should only be use when you think a procedure has been completed. The checklist should only contain items likely to embarrass or kill you! Including stuff like fastening harnesses, setting radio frequencies or detailed engine run-ups have no place in a checklist.
Its painful flying with pilots of simple aeroplanes who cannot operate without a do list.

industry insider 26th Sep 2018 11:44

Wiggley


Quite poor when the operational checklist for an airliner from startup to shutdown literally fits on a single-sided A4 page. The expanded checklist is of course within easy reach, but is only used for abnormal procedures.
Spot on, I spent many years flying single pilot IFR Ops, always used a flip out checklist, but it was a list, not a novel. I think we are at risk of over striving to "protect" ourselves by including every possible item into a check list. I was always taught that they are for the guidance of wise men and the obeyance of fools.

sheppey 26th Sep 2018 14:51


You could start an argument about the wisdom of a pre landing gear check on a fixed gear aircraft,
Ask any instructor why check the landing gear down on a fixed gear type and he will say because one day you will fly a retractable gear aircraft and it gets you in the habit of checking gear down and locked.

Now ask him if that is the reason, then how come you don't say "Gear up" as part of the after take off check in a Cessna 172? Talk about negative "training". Typical GA.

Ascend Charlie 26th Sep 2018 18:53

A simple Flow Check will suffice - top to bottom, left to right. Arrange all the knobs and switches in a pleasing and eye-catching manner.

Then go flying.

ACMS 27th Sep 2018 08:40

Sheppy, when I fly a fixed gear fixed prop such as a PA28 I still mention in my checks on the ground and in the air: Cowl flaps, Pitch and Gear. What’s the harm in saying them? After nearly 40 years of safe flying it’s served me very well in all GA types up to the PA31.
Muscle memory and good habits forged over a life time.

ShyTorque 27th Sep 2018 08:51

All a load of BUMFFCH.

Sunfish 27th Sep 2018 10:18

flying a mix of fixed and retractable you are stupid if you do not include gear in your mental checklist, likewise propeller.

My response to the mental challenge on fixed gear is "down and welded".

Ascend Charlie 27th Sep 2018 10:35


Muscle memory and good habits forged over a life time.
That could bring you embarrassment when you switch from a Navajo/Chieftain into a Baron - the gear and flap switches are interposed.

AerocatS2A 27th Sep 2018 11:04


Originally Posted by Sunfish (Post 10259747)
flying a mix of fixed and retractable you are stupid if you do not include gear in your mental checklist, likewise propeller.

My response to the mental challenge on fixed gear is "down and welded".

I never included it in fixed undercarriage aircraft. Didn't see the point.

The more I see of checklist use, the more I believe, particularly in single pilot ops, that if you have forgotten a critical item such as GEAR, you will probably also forget to do whatever checklist is supposed to trap that error.


All times are GMT. The time now is 05:44.


Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.