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Originally Posted by kaz3g
(Post 9927767)
It seems that everyone is missing the point. Whether you use a paper chart or a digital one, you must fly VFR rules and that means establishing your position by reference to the ground at the required intervals. You have to look outside.
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[QUOTE=kaz3g;9927767
The AUSTER and I will be back in outback NSW and Qld next May participating in the RFDS 90th Anniversary odyssey from Dubbo to Mt Isa and we will try not to get lost.[/QUOTE] That sounds like an invitation for others to come along on the trip? :) |
KRviator, What regulation/s allows this?
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Originally Posted by Duck Pilot
(Post 9927830)
KRviator, What regulation/s allows this?
3.3.2 Flight under the VFR 3.3.2.1 The following apply in respect of flight under the VFR:
So the above states that you need to be able to navigate by reference to the ground or water OR by the methods in the following paragraph (3.3.1.1 as above): 3.3.1.1 An aircraft operating under the IFR must be navigated by: a. an approved area navigation system that meets performance requirements of the intended airspace or route; or A TSO129a (or better) GPS system would certainly meet this requirement. For a VFR pilot, as long as one is familiar with how to use the "direct to" function, the navigational requirement would be met. However, using an iPad as a sole means of navigation is a different story as it wouldn't meet the requirements of the regulation. But using the little aeroplane symbol on the iPad to get an "idea" of where you are and then confirming this by looking out the window at ground features would obviously meet the requirement for a visual fix. |
Thankyou Mike!
Just needed to know should I get pulled up by an FOI on a ramp check. |
...GPS system would certainly meet this requirement... . |
Originally Posted by Duck Pilot
(Post 9927886)
Thankyou Mick!
Just needed to know should I get pulled up by an FOI on a ramp check. 4. NAVIGATION REQUIREMENTS 4.1 Flight under the IFR 4.1.1 An aircraft operating under the IFR must be navigated by: a. an approved area navigation system that meets performance requirements of the intended airspace or route; or b. use of a radio navigation system or systems on routes where, after making allowance for possible tracking errors of ±9° from the last positive fix, the aircraft will come within the rated coverage of a radio aid which can be used to fix the position of the aircraft. The maximum time interval between positive fixes must not exceed two (2) hours; or c. visual reference to the ground or water by day, on route segments where suitable en route radio navigation aids are not available, provided that weather conditions permit flight in VMC and the visual position fixing requirements of para 4.1.2.1b. are able to be met. 4.1.2 Flight under the VFR 4.1.2.1 The following apply in respect of flight under the VFR: a. The pilot in command must navigate the aircraft by visual reference to the ground or water, or by using any of the methods specified in para 4.1.1, except that when operating at or below 2,000FT above the ground or water, the pilot in command must be able to navigate by visual reference to the ground or water. b. When navigating by visual reference to the ground or water, the pilot in command must positively fix the aircraft’s position by visual reference to features shown on topographical charts at intervals not exceeding 30 minutes. When flying over the sea, visual reference features may include rocks and reefs and fixed man-made objects which are marked on suitable charts and are readily identifiable from the air. Note: Flight above more than SCT cloud, or over featureless land areas, or over the sea, may preclude visual position fixing at the required intervals and may therefore make visual navigation impracticable. c. When navigating by visual reference in controlled airspace the pilot must notify ATC if the aircraft’s track diverges by more than one (1) nautical mile from the track approved by ATC, or, if navigating by reference to radio navigation aids, by more than the tolerances given in para 4.1.6. d. VFR flight on top of more than SCT cloud is available provided that: (1) VMC can be maintained during the entire flight, including climb, cruise and descent. (2) For VFR flight on top of more than SCT cloud, the visual position fixing requirements of sub-para b., or the other navigational requirements of section 4.1 must be met. (3) Prior to conducting a VFR flight on top of more than SCT cloud, the pilot in command must ensure that current forecasts and observations (including those available inflight observations) indicate that conditions in the area of, and during the period of, the planned descent below the cloud layer will permit the descent to be conducted in VMC. (4) The position at which descent below cloud is planned to occur must be such as to enable continuation of the flight to the destination and, if required, an alternate aerodrome in VMC (see Notes 1 and 2). e. When navigating by reference to radio navigation systems, the pilot in command must obtain positive radio fixes at the intervals and by the methods prescribed in paras 4.1 and 4.1.5. f. The pilot in command of a VFR flight wishing to navigate by means of radio navigation systems or any other means must indicate in the flight notification only those radio navigation aids with which the aircraft is equipped and the pilot is competent to use under CASR 61.385 4.1.5 Position Fixing 4.1.5.1 A positive radio fix is one determined by: a. the passage of the aircraft over an NDB, VOR, TACAN, marker beacon or a DME site; or b. the intersection of two or more position lines which intersect with angles of not less than 45° and which are obtained from NDBs, VORs, localisers or DMEs in any combination. For the purpose of this paragraph, a position line must be within the rated coverage of the aid with the exception that if a fix is determined entirely by position lines from NDBs, the position lines must be within a range of 30NM from each of the NDBs;or c. GNSS meeting the equipment requirements of GEN 1.5 Section 2. Note 4: In this table, GPS means GNSS equipment certified to TSO-C129, TSO-C145, TSO-C146 or equivalent as determined by CASA. |
Originally Posted by KRviator
(Post 9927746)
But 'failing' one on a BFR or check ride, then denying the checkee the ability to use their phone/second tablet (or sextant!) is unreasonable, IMHO.
Same as I would for an engine. I think that would be a responsible thing to do. After giving them a scenario in which the EFB failed and if you had multiple backup devices coming out your whazoo (and especially if you pulled out a sextant! :)) *and* you operated them well and in a proficient and safe way I would almost certainly commend you and let you continue. If you weren't able to do that I would use it as a teaching opportunity. A paper chart and a brain are cheap backup technology, work well if used well and very rarely completely shutdown and fail to reboot (although I have had one rip in an open cockpit). |
Direct TO
And as the light aircraft continued to infringe controlled airspace up the QLD coast, ATC asked, "do you know where you are?"
"Yes! I'm 300 miles from Cairns" There was a fatal accident in NSW several years ago that pointed to use of the 'direct to' button. In lowering weather conditions, the aircraft clipped the top of a small hill. That hill was on the direct track from the departure point to the destination. If the pilot had drawn a line on his chart and been following his progress in relation to the outside world, a small deviation may have saved his life. Just because you can use a GPS, doesn't mean forget the rest. |
KRviator. No you can't use your iPad or other unapproved GPS for VFR navigation. The rules refer to approved GNSS systems only.
That means 30 minutes, chart and pencil for VFR navigation all the time unless fitted with TSO'd gear. At least that's the way I read the rules you posted. Unless ipad and Ozrunways are approved by CASA as primary means of navigation. |
Originally Posted by Sunfish
(Post 9928363)
KRviator. No you can't use your iPad or other unapproved GPS for VFR navigation. The rules refer to approved GNSS systems only.
That means 30 minutes, chart and pencil for VFR navigation all the time unless fitted with TSO'd gear. At least that's the way I read the rules you posted. Unless ipad and Ozrunways are approved by CASA as primary means of navigation. It doesn't mean that at all. It means you need to fix your position every 30 minutes by visual reference to the ground. You can easily meet this requirement by following the magenta line on your iPad and looking out the window and obtaining your visual fixes. I don't condone blindly doing this, but to meet the regulation, you just need to demonstrate that you are obtaining the appropriate fixes. |
Originally Posted by Flying Binghi
(Post 9927898)
As long as we have a GPS constellation beaming down that golden signal..:)
. Airservices & CASA seem to be pretty confident in this as they have shut down a huge number of ground based aids. As has been stated above, you can blast off on a private IFR flight with a single TSO129a GPS, expect to arrive at a destination with only a GNSS approach in IMC with no alternate and be perfectly legal. You can also blast off on charter & RPT ops with the appropriate redundant GNSS installations and still be fully reliant on the fact that the satellites above with be serviceable. |
Originally Posted by mikewil
(Post 9928373)
Airservices & CASA seem to be pretty confident in this as they have shut down a huge number of ground based aids. As has been stated above, you can blast off on a private IFR flight with a single TSO129a GPS, expect to arrive at a destination with only a GNSS approach in IMC with no alternate and be perfectly legal.
You can also blast off on charter & RPT ops with the appropriate redundant GNSS installations and still be fully reliant on the fact that the satellites above with be serviceable. . |
Originally Posted by Flying Binghi
(Post 9928446)
Its been well covered in numerous other threads how a terrorist 'event' may very well cause the un-availability of GPS for indefinite time periods. So, re this thread subject my suggestion is that pilots should develop a mindset of expectation of full GPS signal loss at any time and have a plan B ready for when it happens - rather then when it happens, sitting in the cockpit going WTF, WTF, etc, for half an hour or so...
. Completely agree with all you have said above, but as has been said many times in this thread, the likelihood of dire consequences in such an event will be far more relevant to the Chieftain in IMC with 10 POB and insufficient fuel for an alternate (and no means of navigating to one anyway) than the pilot of a VFR aircraft being a bit too reliant on the iPad. |
I'd add that when GPS goes down I'd imagine that there will be radio chaos. And none of them GPS Epirb/trackers will work so those that use them will be looking to do it the old fashioned way thus adding to the radio load.
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You can argue about what should or shouldn't be taught on here, or you can use the MOS as a reference document.
Volume 2 section 3 NAV includes: 2.4 NAV.4 – Navigate aircraft en route (a) maintain a navigation cycle that ensures accurate tracking, and apply track correctional techniques to re-establish track prior to waypoint or destination; (b) maintain heading to achieve a nominated track; (c) maintain and revise ETAs (±2 minutes) for waypoint or destination; (d) maintain track in accordance with published flight path tolerances in controlled airspace; (e) navigate using accepted map-reading techniques; (f) maintain navigation and fuel log to monitor tracking, ETAs and fuel status; (g) use appropriate techniques to obtain a positive fix at suitable intervals; (h) maintain awareness of route, en route terrain, en route and destination weather, and react appropriately to changing weather conditions; NAV 8 – Use instrument navigation systems (a) initialise navigation system (as applicable); (b) conduct navigation system validity check (as applicable); (c) conduct RAIM check if required; (d) select, load, check and activate the flight plan (as applicable); (e) navigate on departure, en route and on arrival using GNSS; (f) operate instrument navigation systems correctly; (g) use instrument navigation systems to assist with navigation; (h) confirm waypoints and fixes using instrument navigation systems. Underpinning knowledge of the following: (a) basic GNSS principles; (b) en route GNSS navigation principles; (c) dead-reckoning navigation; So the answer is, they must be competent in both. To the people who say it is a bad thing, do you ever use a GPS in your car? |
Originally Posted by KRviator
(Post 9927787)
Not anymore...You can use GNSS to provide the positive fix if above 2000AGL. And when using an approved radio-nav system, including GNSS (TSO-C129 or better), it pushes the positive-fix time out to 2 hours! :eek:
GNSS? What's that? :p Kaz |
Originally Posted by gerry111
(Post 9927794)
That sounds like an invitation for others to come along on the trip? :)
The itinerary is for about 8 small hops with a plan drawn up at 70 knots airspeed so it will be a very leisurely jaunt with lots of evenings along the way. Don't know about any involvement of others but I am looking forward to it. Kaz |
As has been stated above, you can blast off on a private IFR flight with a single TSO129a GPS, expect to arrive at a destination with only a GNSS approach in IMC with no alternate and be perfectly legal. |
Originally Posted by Captain Nomad
(Post 9928907)
Are you sure re the single TSO129a GPS thing? Check CAO 20.18 9D.8 and 9D.11 / AIP GEN 1.5 ss2.1 and ss2.2
I stand corrected: For IFR: TSO129a - suitable for IFR & Approaches TSO146a - suitable as above and as sole means of navigation (ie no backup navaid receivers required etc) |
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