Yep, side-slipping is the technique we use to add drag to lose height and/or slow down the Decathlon on final as it doesn't have flaps.

If I recall correctly, the pilot of the 'Gimli Glider" (the Air Canada Boeing 767 that ran out of fuel and forced landed flapless on a 7000 ft disused airstrip) side slipped the 767 to lose height on final. Now that would have been something to see.

Slight thread drift coming up. Interestingly, so called "dead stick landings" from high altitude is not something that is formally practiced in jet transport flight simulators. Yet, most type rating syllabus require practice at volcanic ash encounter resulting in loss of all engines. By working through the appropriate check list, it is envisaged that at least one engine is finally started and allows the crew to save the day.

Everyone loves a happy ending of course but one could argue there is a chance that none of the engines will start and you are left with a dead stick landing into the sea or a conveniently placed long runway.

However, that is considered so statistically improbable by regulators that practice dead stick landings (if done at all) are seen as nothing more than a bit of fun at the end of the session rather than a serious exercise of handling skill and good airmanship. In other words cross your fingers and pray it will never happen for real.

One of the points the captain of the Air Canada Boeing 767 made during the investigation, was that he wished his company had allowed him to practice at least one dead stick landing in the simulator rather than him having to nail it first time for real at Gimli. He had a good point, I thought. CASA please note:ok:

Folks,
The B767 side-slips very nicely, indeed it even does it on auto-pilot coupled approaches with a cross-wind, as did the L1011.
The B747-400 was mix and match, on a coupled approach it was part side-slip and part offset heading for drift, as too much "wing down" could result in a serious seniority scraper. Hand flying, it side-slipped very nicely.
There are no AFM side-slip limitations for either of the above.
Tootle pip!!

I read with interest an article on Avweb today...

" Some older airplanes have performance peculiarities that can kill you if you walk into a corner of the envelope ignorant of their existence. For example, on any number of older airplanes, attempting to use the ailerons to pick up a low wing at close to stall speed may result in aileron reversal. That is, applying left aileron will cause the airplane to roll right. Sometimes vigorously. The reason is the simple lack of aerodynamic knowledge at the time the airplane was built and the descending aileron stalls that section of the wing. Not being aware of that fact can result in an attention-grabbing event for the pilot new to old airplanes. Rule of thumb if you stall an older airplane and a wing drops—pick it up with the rudder, keep the ailerons neutral."

No wash out on an AUSTER.

Kaz

Arrrrggghhhh!
Don't "pick it up with rudder"!!
Apply rudder to stop further wing drop while lowering the nose to come out of the stall and once recovered use appropriate controls to recover to level flight. Recovering from the stall is number one priority.

I do have Auster experience. ;)

I have heard two instructors in the past 24 hrs try to sell me that rubbish during development training.

The accompanying patter actually amounted to a recipe for disaster...

The instructor schools responsible for their initial training should hang their heads in shame...

Simply put, rudder controls yaw. Prevent yaw during stall entry (assuming non-turning stall) and recovery using rudder (best achieved by having Bloggs focus on a reference point throughout entry and recovery and work his/her feet to keep the nose "locked on" in the yawning sense). Who cares about the wing "drop" if there's no yaw? Any wing drop can be corrected with aileron once the wings are unstalled (ie elevator control forward of stalled stick position).

Easy, and guaranteed to avoid a spin (which is part of the point of this).

Spin avoidance for dummies (like me!) - prevent stall and/or prevent yaw. Done!

Stalled stock position - not taught in schools these days and not understood by the vast majority of pilots... but don't get me started on that!

Happy stalling!

We were recovering from upsets in the sim recently, instructor says I don't have to do any but young first officer does as " you have done hundreds in your early training and as an instructor in years gone bye, these chaps only do one or two on their basic training"
WTF are these guys trained as, follow the magenta line, say the right words and nothing can go wrong!

Nice to see your instructor had such touching faith in you. Did he tick your box without having certified your competency on upsets? Naughty naughty,:E

It's a box ticking exercise these days.Did he fluke a stall recovery? If so,tick a box-Competent. It's called competency based training,and its the greatest load of crock I have ever seen!!!

I posted the article because it again raises the fact that older aircraft may not have the same aerodynamics as later ones do. I think Centaurus made a comment to that effect in an earlier post.

Not that I'm in the habit of aggressively stalling it, except when landing, these days in deference to both our ages, my technique is to rapidly lower the nose while applying rudder to stop it yawing. As it's now unstalled, I level the wings and add power as appropriate bearing in mind the yellow arc starts at 95 KN. Seems to work.

I have more than 500 hours in the AUSTER and now feel I'm in control more often than not. :rolleyes:

I also have about the same time in gliders and I've never got over that instant stick forward reaction to low inertia.

Kaz

"Picking it up" with rudder is even more likely to help you enter a spin in an older aircraft!
Glider training is generally much better in this regard than power. :)

I've seen a Thai Inter DC-8 side slip to lose height doing a straight in approach on finals landing Rwy 18 at Butterworth, Malaysia. Very impressive. Swedish Captain..

I was a passenger in a Thai International DC-8 from Bayan Lepas (Penang) to Kai Tak (Hong Kong) during 1982.

TBM-Legend, So why did the DC-8 you mention land at Butterworth? That's pretty unusual I would have thought? :confused:

Wouldn't trying to pick up the wing with aileron send it into a full spin like in the video here?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_FoXr4e3mM

Hahaha back to base for a change of underwear and to make a booking with an instructor for a lesson in power-on stall recovery :D.


(Love the feigned bravado for the camera - woohooh yeaahh..!)

downdata

If you don't unload the wing this is the end result. Standard recovery requires unloading the wing first and foremost ie relax the back pressure, stop any rotation with rudder and level the wings with aileron. With the exception of a few wing platforms, this is the only correct technique. Use of power will vary too based on aircraft type etc. As for the myth of using rudder to pick up a wing, you do this at your own peril. It's been an incorrect technique taught by inexperienced instructors, and a lazy regularly littered by people that have been taught incorrectly as well.

What about this video ... full right aileron didn't exactly pick up the wing ...

https://youtu.be/WKIk-dqml6U

downdata

If you look closely he reloads the wing back up as he rolls in aileron. As I said unload the wing "AND KEEP IT UNLOADED", stop the yaw with rudder, level the wings with aileron. Simultaneously power is coming in and as airspeed increases to a safe level gently raise the nose being careful not to cause a secondary stall by loading up the wing too much again. Whether I'm doing this in a C172 or an A330, the principal is the same. If you unload the wings they are now unstalled and the wing is flying. At this point ailerons are effective and won't cause a wing drop as long as you keep the wing unloaded. If you reload it up again you get what you see in the video. Text book wrong technique.

Try gliding
 

In cross country soaring flight pilots thermal very close to the stall in order to circle as tightly as possible. We experience frequent wing drops as thermal strength varies. The instinctive and immediate reaction is a quick movement of the stick forward and immediate recovery. Glider pilots have no power lever!
Stalling and incipient spins, then developed spins are thoroughly taught to the gliding student and required in every Annual flight review. We also use our feet all the time on the rudders not merely using them as foot rests but never use full rudder in an incipient spin but only in a fully developed spin then it is standard recovery - full opposite rudder - stick central-move stick slowly forward until rotation stops- neutral rudders -recover gently from the dive. There is no power lever only the power of gravity!
I am a gliding instructor and power pilot , tug pilot plus Mecir qualified but gliding taught me about stalls and spins not power instructors except on my initial aerobatics endorsement in a chipmunk

Sounds like an unusual and rather unstable approach by an overconfident captain:eek: He'd be gone a million if that manoeuvre was recorded on the QAR if fitted in those days?