EFB and CPL flight test/training
 

Hi all

This is something I could put to my instructor next week but thought maybe someone here might have some experience with the subject.


I'm about 2-3 weeks away from my PPL flight test and all going well, I should obtain my PPL.


I'm contemplating the idea of continuing on with CPL studies and building hrs to suit.


My question is: Once I obtain my PPL and start building hrs, should I take advantage a EFB. As in, if I where to continue on to CPL, can a EFB be utilised during the CPL flight test.

Or, should I continue solely using paper so I don't get used to the connivance of a EFB and somewhat loose my 'paper skills'?

I will continue holding paper maps regardless as a backup.

Cheers :ok:

Bingo, i'd be surprised if they let you use an EFB and to be honest, if they do i'd question if they are a very good school to be with.

Build the skills for the (relatively short) time you are studying for a CPL so when you jump into the real world, which is all GPS, EFBs and FMS, you have that gut understanding to know when things aren't right and of course have the skill to fall back on should everything go tits up!

If you are considering being a commercial pilot, while we all use EFBs these days bear in mind a number of charter companies will make you do DR nav during your line training and obviously if you choose to become a flight instructor you will need to teach DR. So even if you think you can get away with not knowing it, you can't. It's a skill that will still be tested in the real world, even if you (hopefully) never use it in anger, as it's a simple skill that can save your butt!

Just saw your location is Darwin, if that is where you are doing your training, knowing your CFI, there is NO way CM would let one of his students use an EFB during PPL/CPL training

If he does ever let you, it's a trap. Be prepared for him to grab it off you, when you are in the middle of no where and say "Woops it's failed, take me home please."

You know what mcgrath50, now that i think about it, your exactly right! 'Simulated failed' EFB or even just failed EFB is inevitable and if i dont prepair for it by honing my paper skills, ill end up in **** creek. Im thinking ill stick to paper for a while and slowly introducing a EFB as a referance/cross check only.

I havent discussed this with my flying school/CFI yet but im sure they will share the same view as you.

This should surely not be an issue if the iPad or similar is not being used as the sole means of navigation... are CPL students actually getting around using iPads as GPS substitutes?

Honest question/statement.

Are they not the same satellite's IPads and say Garmin 430 use - is an error or failure is in one it is in both units.

Remember that it is legal to use a tablet device as your source of charts and manuals. You do, obviously, need a back up but that can be another tablet device. Second hand they are not very costly.

And therein lies the problem, you have instructors essentially creating their own set of rules, basically because they can. No different to an ATO saying you cannot use a backup EFIS on an IFR ride because "it is not needle-ball-airspeed". :ugh:

Now, I am not for one minute suggesting that a flight test candidate should be permitted to point to the little blue dot as an answer to the oft-asked "Where are we?" question, and would go so far as to say that the blue dot should be turned off during the test, such that you are only using it for a track line and chartage.

But, an approved electronic copy of the charts is legal, and should be assessed as such. "Oh, it got too hot/battery is now flat/you spilled your waterbottle on it", then whip out the backup, or program a Direct-to into the panel-mounted GPS. If they won't let you use it, the ATO has, essentially introduced simultaneous, unrelated failures which, IIRC, they are not supposed to do...Otherwise we might as well make those V1 cuts even more interesting in the multi-checkride and pull both mixture levers to ICO instead of just one...When was the last time an instructor took your paper charts away from you during a flight-test?

I have no problem with DR, paper charts and calculating diversions the old fashioned way. But for an instructor or ATO to prohibit an other-wise legal tool "just because" does not sit well with me, anymore than the ATO ordering you to use charts only purchased through his pilot shop would sit with anyone else.

Now the serious answer.

Up to date electronic charts are legal and therefore acceptable in a flight test. One would, of course, require a backup (paper charts or a second device). I'm happy to embrace the technology and examine pilots within a "real world" context.

However, if a candidate comes to me for a flight test with an EFB, I direct him / her to select the GPS function (ownship position) off - as it is a requirement of the test to be able to navigate using visual techniques (for VFR tests) and using the azimuth / CDI presentations in the test aircraft / sim (for IFR assessments). But full use of the electronic chart without "position assistance" is fine - and smart in my opinion. I personally use two iPads when the operator SOP allows it, and when I fly for myself...

But mcgrath50 is correct in his assertion that initial training needs to be done the "traditional" way - as this is the only time we as instructors can guarantee the underpinning knowledge is sound. Later in the training continuum we should introduce the responsible use of available technology. Better this than have trainee pilots experiment with it in secret (often with adverse results...).

God knows that I find it a lot easier to zoom in on Jeppesen plates on my iPad with my ever-aging eyes than squint at dog-eared bits of rice paper! And the night feature on JeppFD for approach plates - how awesome is that!

The Garmin 430 is TSO'ed and the iPad isn't... one costs $400 and the other costs $8,000*+ They of course do use the same satellites.

You can't legally rely on an iPad or follow the aircraft across the screen as a sole means of navigation.

Sqack ok who tells the unit it is TSO'ed? Stop being the tool that needs to have a regulation.

What has cost to do with my question? is the TSO party paying a fee for satellite usage! only a fool would answer that question!!!!

You can blindly follow a GPS any time you wish, even when the screen goes black, its not legally required but please give your gps make and model number with current update status so we can get Scotty to beam you up another navigation means.

We might need a credit card number with a $75 Trillion limit, Scotty is not cheap these days.

To be honest I struggled to know what your question actually was due to the typo you made...

TSO 129/146 compliant GPS units are built a higher standard than an iPad....

IMHO, if you are doing licence training apart from an IFR rating EFBs should be not allowed.

CAAP 233-1(1) doesn't give any clear direction in terms of who should own the EFB.

The CAAP isn't regulation.

Is a maintained TSO'd ADF, NAV/COM or GPS safer than a EFB or non TSO'd GPS? NO! Pilots should be able and encouraged to use all the available aeronautical data available to them, ever if it isn't from an approved source, ala Chanel 9 WX forcast if they are operating locally.

Do you have a reference for this or any form of evidence?

Personally, my TSO'ed GPS doesn't overheat on warm days, doesn't crash and doesn't have half the problems of an iPad.

Squawk7700, take your TSO'ed GPS and disable the fan inside and stick it in the sun and see how long it lasts as well...

If you stick a piece of electronics in the sun without adequate cooling of course you're going to have a bad day! Take your iPad and put it in a reasonable position (out of the sunlight) and you won't have any problems with it overheating, there are some excellent panel mounts you can get installed that will assure this! This just comes down to thinking it through like ANY piece of equipment.

Remember that all TSO'ed means is that someone has spent a butt load of money to have it certified as such, it does not mean that a Non-TSO'ed is necessarily inferior just that it has not been tested and there are different levels of TSO, it does not necessarily mean it has reached some Gold Standard.

TangoAlphad, the iPad itself is a multifunction tool, but the EFB software being used is not, it is purpose built if you're using ones such as Avplan or Ozrunways! I've had failures on TSO'ed equipment the same as I'm sure just about everyone else here has, once again, TSO doesn't make it foolproof, just means it has been tested to meet a certain standard, not even necessarily the highest standards.

When I first saw this thread I struggled to think of what would be best, I personally think we should embrace such technology, it is invaluable when used correctly like anything else, having your maps and charts available so quickly and easy, having them easily readable as well is fantastic! Flying Bear seems to have the best answer as to how it should be used, they're a perfectly legal and acceptable replacement for Paper Charts, infact I consider them to be far superior, no more being caught out with an old map or chart because you haven't had time to get into the big smoke and purchase the right charts or because your shop has run out of the one you needed!! Just about everyone has access to a reasonable internet connection even if it's through their phone to update their chosen EFB and as mentioned before a backup isn't terribly expensive. Infact if you work it out over a year or two you'll find the EFB will pay for itself depending how many maps, charts etc...you need to keep subscriptions for!

It's all fun and games until the iPad stops working, particularly for those that are relying on it for their position, which I believe is many pilots even though they are not approved for this purpose.

I happen to know that a GNS 430 will happily run all day without the fan running. It's my understanding that this is a requirement for certification. The chassis will become as hot as hell and you'll almost burn your leg of it leans against it, but it won't stop. It's one of the reasons why TSO'ed costs so much...

Squawk7700, you talk about the iPad failing but have evidently flown with your GNS 430 not having a functioning Fan which threatens to render it useless as well, essentially an item that makes it TSO'd has failed yet you continued on with without actually knowing what would happen? Did you have a backup? I'm sure you did!

Just like any piece of Equipment, it's all fun and games till it fails, if you use an iPad keep a backup just incase, it's prudent planning just like ANYTHING. You don't go out IFR relying on a single instrument working, you have backups. EFBs just like any other piece of equipment require some extra thought and planning to use safely and effectively.

So far in my relatively short flying career I have had 2 paper failures* and 0 iPad failures.
*One approach chart flew out the window on the Apron when the instructor opened the door and the other a WAC chart ripped along a fold.
A backup iPad isn the end is a lot lighter and a lot cheaper than paper.

Not completely. The iPad uses an Apple prostituted GPS system they call AGPS - for Assisted GPS. Apple are not forthcoming about what this really is, but it requires some access to the cellular network. In remote areas and / or higher altitudes, the iPads's own GPS is unreliable. This changes, of course, if you use an external GPS like the Dual units or connect to the aircrafts GPS via something like a Guardian unit.

But, this thread has mixed up the EFB function with moving map navigation software features of programmes like AvPlan, Ozrunways or Jepp FD.

I learned to use a slide rule at school and I like and value those skills. I was one of the highest seeded rally navigators and loved maps and marking them up with local knowledge. But these are skills of a previous era, as is drawing wind triangles on shirt cuffs like the early pilots did before wind computers.

Its time to let it go and embrace the new age.

If you have an EFB with all the required data (maps, AIP, DPAS, ETC) AND an adequate back up strategy (a second iPad, charging capacity or paper print outs), then you are legal and no test officer has any place to criticise. Most guys I know will have 2 iPads plus a charging mechanism and some key procedures for the flight as hard copy. FTDK will add about 5 other devices as well. An adequate strategy IS NOT an iPad and an IPhone as backup.

I would argue that it is important that (for your future) you are fluent in accessing the data you need from an EFB and have a cockpit organisation system to deal with it. None of the skills that I learned in marking up tracks on maps, refolding maps, cutting edges to make maps fit together, etc are relevant any more.

This provides static data. The second issue is relying on the moving map capabilities for navigation, which is a whole different kettle of fish. And here I would agree with other posters. Following the magenta line no display of airmanship.

The core visual navigation skills are not dependent on reading a paper map vs an electronic one. Read the " The Art of Flying" by Robert Buck. All of those skills are still valid in an electronic age. The level of airmanship evident in his book can still be practiced with an iPad.

Off the original topic a bit.

I do agree with your opinion 7700 re the TSO debate, I'm more referring to pilots being able to us non TSO'd equipment if it has design features made for the particular purpose - whatever that might be eg iPad with Ozrunways or a electronic flight panel to go into a VFR homebuilt.

The SAAA and/or RA AUS done an excellent case study on non TSO'd avionics to be fitted to homebuilts for the purpose of IFR certification. I haven't got a link to it at hand, whoever done it really done their home work. There is some really good non TSO'd equipment on the market, for a fraction of the price of the TSO'd equipment.

The purpose of the study was to try and convince CASA who knocked it back I think, however I'm sure the debate isn't dead in the water just yet.

Agreed TangoAlphad, it's for this reason that a Pilot IMHO should be required to use paper charts and maps, I'd probably say right up until the advanced stages of CPL when the student should then be introduced to EFBs like OzRunways, Avplan etc... and some PC Flight Planning Software such as they'll be using in the real world, it only makes sense if you want to produce Pilots that are ready to hit the Tarmac rolling!

You want them to understand the fundermentals that underpin using their Charts and Maps in general but also have the benefit of gaining all the additional benefits that EFBs bring with them!

I agree with you both about the skills, but disagree that it requires a paper map. I think that situational awareness is about being aware of whats outside the cockpit and reading the topography. The map could be a WAC chart, electronic chart, street map, or a drawing on the back of a beer coaster from a guy at the pub the night before.

Three of the experiences that taught me most were 1. Ferrying Pitts Specials that didn't have so much as an accurate compass and 2. Outback flying where you need to navigate in the macro and 3 NVMC where heading & time become more critical.

My experience about the CPL was learning passenger handling, operations manuals and learning to use maps less and take up less cockpit space so the passengers comfort and experience is improved. In my opinion CPL is not to fix teaching deficiencies from PPL. Its about teaching the additional skills required for a commercial environment.