|
ruprecht,
Yep that photo encapsulates pretty much all the original team with some many more notables following. PFL... 15,000 overhead at 300 kts pointing towards base. 10,000 at base slowing to 240 for gear extension. Accel to 270 kts once gear doors were closed. 5000 on final at 270 kts. 1500 feet short final (1nm) at 270 kts commence flare. Wipe off 100ks during the flare and land at 170kts. Made the Space Shuttle look like child's play. |
I strapped in a few of those guys. Good times!:)
|
First Mirage ride was with Oggie Worth - he was then OC Butterworth. Second ride was with Gus Larard. I think Dave Bowden was my CO at 75SQN at the time. (Can't remember when the change of COs happened when I was at 75SQN.) Tex Watson was OC Richmond when I was posted back to 2AD. The items on the wall at my man cave also include Reg Meissner's memorial AIP cover.
Great times.... |
Bugga all those guys having fun in Mirages while I was training bloggs on Vampires/Macchis!
Still my turn came later, added English Electric Lightning to the go fast list! |
The photo
Can't work out what's under the pitot. Looks like an IFR probe (surely not, on a gravity refuelled airplane!)
Oh, is it one of those TP-style data probes?? |
I was training bloggs on Vampires/! |
Can't work out what's under the pitot. Here |
Thanks, Fris.
The light starts to shine! Also explains what the Greek or German Air Force were doing flying the jet! Doh! Must be the place where they're converted to right-hand drive, right? |
The probe was known as the "gust pobe".
IIRC the aircraft was used for high speed (600kts) low level flights through areas of high mechanical turbulence. This was an Aeronautical Research Laboratories project to measure gust shapes in the real world cf that used in aircraft design. I do recall one pilot got a 6g bump - pretty impressive considering the low slope of the Cl/Alpha curve of the Mirage. |
Why was it accepted as "a requirement" to fly at 250kts?
"Sorry mate, minimum speed 300kts." would have realigned the Swiss cheese on day one. |
Re the photo; Tony Ford (back row left) was my CPL Flight test(s) examiner.
|
Perhaps you should have joined the RAAF, Pinky?
Free pilot training and you might have flown some seriously fast metal! :D |
Tony Ford (back row left) was my CPL Flight test(s) examiner |
1500 feet short final (1nm) at 270 kts commence flare. Wipe off 100ks during the flare and land at 170kts. |
So what happened to Nick? Did he go on to have a successful RAAF career or did he have to do penance at a desk or in Townsville or Darwin running logistics or something awful?
|
have a successful RAAF career or did he have to do penance at a desk or in Townsville or Darwin running logistics or something awful? |
Originally Posted by Centaurus
(Post 9494541)
Wipe of 100 knots in what is probably a five second flare? 270 knots commence flare at one mile before the threshold? Slight exaggeration maybe?
|
Originally Posted by Centaurus
Wipe of 100 knots in what is probably a five second flare? 270 knots commence flare at one mile before the threshold? Slight exaggeration maybe?
|
A-4, but might give some guidance Centaurus.
The aircraft is on final approach when lined up with the landing runway. Optimum conditions are 1000 feet AGL, 2000 to 3000 feet of straight-way, and 180 KIAS. If high, altitude should be lost by nosing over slightly permitting airspeed to increase. Minimum airspeed on final is 170 KIAS. If excessive airspeed exists on final (over 200 KlAS), manual speedbrake extension is effective in reducing airspeed. Speedbrakes should be used only if excessive airspeed exists and landing on the runway is ensured. FLARE. The flare should be commenced 200 to 300 feet above the runway at 180 KlAS. THIS IS A CRITICAL PHASE OF THE APPROACH AND REQUIRES OPTIMUM PILOT TECHNIQUE. A sequence of minor nose rotations to produce a series of slight reductions in rate of descent (step effect) allows time for constant appraisal of the flare at each incremental position and provides a satisfactory means for effecting a smooth landing. Airspeed dissipates very rapidly (power off) during the flare. LANDING. Optimum touchdown speed is 140 to 150 KIAS. Approximately 5000 feet of runway will be required for stopping at these airspeeds. Airspeeds below 140 KlAS should be avoided to prevent a hard landing. A safe landing can be accomplished at touchdown airspeeds as high as 180 KIAS if sufficient runway remains. Lack of sufficient airspeed to stop the steep rate of descent may not only result in an unsafe landing but may also preclude safe ejection. |
.. but losing 20kt per second
Only ever had the one backseat ride. The ASI change during a demo clean max rate roll was in the order of 100kts as I recall .. the ASI certainly was an agile device compared to what a chap might have been used to .. the roll rate must have been in the order of 400 deg/sec or higher. |
From the horses mouth, well, the RAAF Mirage flight manual
FLAMEOUT LANDING Due to the extremely high sink rate and the high approach speed required, good conditions and a high degree of pilot skill and currency are needed to successfully complete a flameout landing. A flameout landing should only be attempted on an airfield fully equipped for normal Mirage operations. If such an airfield is not available or if the pilot is not completely confident of his ability to complete the forced landing, he should point the aircraft towards a clear area and eject. The flameout key points are; High Key Point: 15,000 over the upwnd end of the runway, heading 135° or 225° relative to the duty runway centreline Low Key Point: 1 NM abeam of the runway threshold at 10,000 ft, heading 180° relative to landing direction 5000 ft Key Point: Middle of final turn. The final turn is a constant turn with 30° to 45° of bank. The desired touch down point is about one third of the way down the runway. The pilot should maintain the aircraft flight path towards the threshold while holding between 240 and 270 KIAS. The action of flaring the aircraft, transfers the final touchdown point further down the runway. WARNING: If a successful forced landing is not assured by the 5,000 ft key point, the pilot should point the aircraft towards a clear area, arrest the rate of descent and eject. Note: If the desired flight path cannot be maintained while holding a minimum of 240 KIAS, an undershoot situation is developing. Speed: Regardless of the aircraft configuration, maintain 240 to 270 KIAS throughout the pattern, from high key point down to flare out. If on late final the IAS decreases, do not try to re-establish speed because the aircraft will probably reach a steep nose down attitude without increasing IAS and it may be impossible to perform a precise flare out. Undercarriage Extension: Lower the U/C on reaching a key point. It takes 20 seconds for the U/C to extend when the engine is windmilling. WARNING: The limit for U/C extension is the 5,000 ft key point. Landing: It is important to maintain an IAS of 240 kn until flare out (400 – 500 ft AGL). If flare out is initiated with an IAS lower than 220 kn, or at too low an altitude, it is difficult to check the rate of descent which is about 8,500 ft/min and the U/C may be damaged upon landing. The desired touch down point is one third of the way down the runway. |
^ Google expert! At least you used quotation marks this time.
|
You really are an ass Hempy. Actually no, came from the local museums library smart ass.
|
I'm impressed that a library would hold such a document. Well researched, Megan! :D And written in proper Aussie English (Watto?), not some French translation...
Yes Hempy, pull ya head in, those words are nowhere to be found on the (Google) net, apart from Megan's post. |
I get a little confused by the terminology when reading about the flare manoeuvre as applied to the Mirage forced landing pattern. One writer says you lose 100 knots in the flare. But does the writer actually mean you lose 100 knots in the flare and including the subsequent few seconds of hold-off which naturally occurs with most aircraft before actual touch-down?
|
I'm impressed that a library would hold such a document Judd, you can see the approach is flown at 270, and touchdown is at about 170, so yes you lose 100 k in the flare. Not flown jets myself, but I'm sure Capn Bloggs would confirm that speed is life. Speed is energy, and energy is what you need to arrest that horrendous sink rate. If you fluff the approach you'll need that energy to arrest the descent so as the ejection seat will be within parameters, if nothing else. I'd guess that would be one chart that was paid particular attention to. |
8,500 feet per minute....?
That is falling, not flying. Jeez. |
Judd, it's just a "stretched-out" flare, but otherwise similar to a normal aeroplane (perhaps not a Cesspit); no hold-off, just a gradual (positive!) reduction in the rate of descent from 500ft down to touchdown. There was a reasonable amount of fat to adjust the touchdown point, a bit like sideslipping. High? Lower the nose a bit, speed doesn't increase much because of the drag. You could also stretch the glide to a certain extent.
That is all well and good, but the message to the new bograts was... never get yourself overhead the aerodrome at 15,000ft. Then you'll never have to do a forced landing! :ok: |
No, in my experience it was not like a "stretched out" flare. I guess your experience was somewhat different! The Mirage, at those speeds had lots of drag and you could increase the drag hugely with just a tweek on the stick - just roll to 60 degrees AOB pull a bit, roll to 60 in the other direction and repeat - knock off 100 knots easily. It needed a lot of energy to flare from that ROD and bleeding it off slowly would not end well.
On finals the rate of descent was so high that it was easy to identify the centre of the expanding circle of ground where the extended flight path was pointed. If that wasn't on the runway, i.e.. short, then you weren't going to make it. When operating below about 300kts you operated the stick and throttle simultaneously, 180 degrees out of phase - pull back stick, push throttle forward On the other hand Gary Cooper did a successful real forced landing just after takeoff at Willy on a disused old runway that most of us didn't know existed. Somewhere near Dutson I think. |
So how does the ROZAF get on in other parts of the world where a "check wheels" isn't a required part of the landing clearance?
|
Somewhere near Dutson I think
Tomago .. http://www.speedwayandroadracehistor...p-circuit.html I was a high school student at Cessnock at the time and recall the incident's being reported in the local media. Small world C., .. Dutson is not far from where I live in Gippsland. |
Ahh JT IIRC and I demonstrably don't, It is the red wine. Avoid it at all costs - unless you enjoy it. Nowadays much better than flying. Trust you're well. I am in ML for a few days are you in the area?
|
JT just thought of an excuse - through a gunsight ranges appear remarkably similar.
|
Originally Posted by Cptn Bloggs
Yes Hempy, pull ya head in, those words are nowhere to be found on the (Google) net, apart from Megan's post.
I certainly didn't. My post was in relation to quotation marks. Posting history will reveal a certain 'lack of'. In the academic world it's known as 'plagiarism'. In onetracks defense I'm happy to assume that it's ignorance rather than blatant copy'n'paste. Feel free to pull your own head in unless you are incapable of comprehension. In which case, carry on. |
A much more sedate affair in my old mount, even my students didn't get scared!
www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hMtCrODMdo |
Hempy, at the risk of derailing an otherwise informative and fun thread, your post
Originally Posted by Hempy
^ Google expert! At least you used quotation marks this time.
ZZUF, the mirage was nowhere near as bad as you make out. It was a French Lady, after all. :ok: |
Capn Bloggs, you'll have to excuse Hempy, he lives in cloud cuckoo land.
"When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less." "The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things." "The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master— that's all." |
Avoid it at all costs - unless you enjoy it
Good Lord, sir ... if it weren't for the demon Port and similar libations, I daresay that I would be teetotal .. well do I recall, many decades ago, being introduced to Galway Pipe on a sailing weekend down at Metung .. nectar of the Gods. Mind you the walking distance from the pub BACK to the marina later in the evening was considerably further than that logged earlier FROM the boat to the pub .. I am in ML for a few days are you in the area? Bugga, been in town all day today .. just got home .. would have enjoyed a catchup. Maybe better luck with the planning next time either this side or the other of the island. through a gunsight ranges appear remarkably similar. Not having had the pleasure I can only imagine .. however, no dishonour, I suggest. |
megan, A3-100 perhaps? :)
|
Just for interest. One who didn't ignore the big red flashing light. Taken from Melbourne Tower, early 80's.
http://i316.photobucket.com/albums/m...60906_0001.jpg |
| All times are GMT. The time now is 21:34. |
Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.