Appeared to impact at cruise speed. Surely an intentional impact would have been at a higher speed. Perhaps some "stress relieving" low flying gone wrong in the absence of solid evidence otherwise which probably only the family would know. Its not up to this forum to speculate on his mental state.

I did not say that Bob nor is that my suggestion. If anything the tests, medicals and rules should be relaxed.

In my opinion, there needs to be an avenue for aviation personnel (not only pilots) where they can seek confidential advice/support well before the individual's state of mind gets out of hand. The fear and possibility of shame, embarrassment and loss of job/licence MUST be completely removed from any form of assistance, be it medical or simply just a helpful encouraging/supportive conversation.

If he had done it in a car, it probably would not have got media attention, albeit very little if it did. However it happened in an aeroplane, and he was one of us - just like you and me. You or me could be next, and never say no it could not be, because circumstances and state of minds can change in a heart beat. Everyone is susseptable to depression/anxiety, you are a fool or very niave if you believe anyone is immune to it.

The funny thing about mental illness is that contrary to common belief it is just as physical of a problem as a mental one. As someone who once suffered from depression I had to fight the stigma that was 'He's just sad'.

Slowly the world appears to be opening their eyes to the causes and consequences of mental illness. The aviation industry desperately needs procedures put in place to deal with it; support networks, better education within the community as to the signs people display, and avenues for personnel to seek help in a safe and secure manner.

As a male my experience tells me that the struggle is somewhat harder, we feel shame, our pride and masculinity make us feel like we can't seek help. It will get to the point where you hit rock bottom, and from that point you make the decision to either end your life of seek help, we need to teach people to seek help before it reaches this point, as well as providing places for people to seek help.

As a survivor of depression and someone who hasn't shown any symptoms in the past 3 years, I find myself being able to pick those struggling in a crowd full of people, I don't believe it should be so difficult for others to start paying attention and learning what to look for.

I wish you all the best colebertos, your recover story is wonderful.

I totally agree with you views on how we should tackle this dreadful illness.

An interesting blog here on pilot mental health (USA focused):

https://blogs.harvard.edu/philg/2015...ly-ill-pilots/

I'm not divorced and I'm not an expert on this, however pretty sure that in Australia it's based on what you are actually earning at the time and not what you are earning when you are divorced. If that's true above, no wonder they have issues.

Rubbish like that only puts fuel on the fire - sadly it's true. Same Sh!t is very possible here in Australia.

Good find Shagpile

This makes my blood boil!!


This kind of thing is more and more likely to happen with the passing of every day. Our CEO's are pocketing millions while the workforce is being ground into a stressed out pulp, devoid of any family time or lifestyle. Enough is enough already.


CASA: If you didn't care previously, you better start caring now, what happens when you get two guys/girls on a flight deck with severe life stresses? What then? How is your two people on the flight deck rule going to work when (not if) suicidal tendencies become the ubiquitous in your pilots psyche?


Airline management: You should hang your head in shame, you have caused this. Irrespective of whether you can make it look like you didn't, you have caused this. You and every other sniveling little bottom line watching manager, across every single toxic airline business unit, across this country have committed murder by proxy.


Pilots/engineers/cabin crew etc. reading this: If you are feeling like you are being crushed under the weight of the ****ty situation you are in, I urge every one of you to submit an ASIR or REPCON outlining the shameful treatment you are subjected to by your employer.


This is the warning shot for Australian aviation, CASA, Airline CEO's, politicians, fix this NOW before thing get worse. :mad:


Look after one another, your family and your workmates are all you have in this game. Get help if you need it!

I'm sorry, but:

Could someone please explain why suicide is the no. 1 suspected factor here, as opposed to sudden, severe incapacitation, eg heart attack, loss of consciousness, etc? There have been numerous cases of the latter in flight.

What is the EVIDENCE of suicide?

The media reports might be a good indication.
Blitz, I would like to think a lot of other people within the aviation industry have the same opinions. I certainly do.

Well Blitz, that is all well and good if you want to make CEO's, CASA and airline management responsible for your life. I would suggest if you want to make anyone except yourself responsible for your life, you are already in trouble. I say this without prejudice to your opinion and without wanting to put fuel on a fire, just saying.

Thanks Duckie and Olllie for responding to my first post.

Ushuaia, I have no first hand knowledge of this event, but there is a lot of reading between the lines in the media which are often rather reserved in this. Especially the fact that the pilot made contact with loved ones before the presumably fatal flight.

As an aside - One media reported that the pilot appeared normal and relaxed prior to departure so it was unlikely anything premeditated. That may be true, but I offer the following. Many years ago now, I got to know and shared accommodation with a man who was rather withdrawn and not overly friendly. Seven months later he reappeared and was very friendly and relaxed. A different man. Refreshed after the break, I thought.
One week later he hanged himself.

actually very typical behaviour of someone about to do what he did, they have made their decision to go, the weights have been lifted off their shoulders. their plan is set, and they are relieved that their problems and suffering will soon be over.

" What is the EVIDENCE of suicide?"


Seems to be the SMS he sent his family (after take off & before "landing") also the phone call just prior to departure.


I only read that in the media so maybe wrong.

Believe half of what you see and none of what you read or hear and wait for the full report when it involves the news or Internet.

Hmmm, I lived in Lennox Head for a bit. The whole area is an funny farm of individuals who all appear to be on the edge of something. Sure is an interesting place to exercise your existential imperatives - yep that's what it was like.

Didn't agree with me in the long run so I left, but I could easily see how these so so called "delicate flowers" can get it all wrong with life's challenges.

Very sad indeed.

Interesting Cattletruck...never would have picked you as someone who resided in Lennox for a while...yes the entire area, as lovely as it is, has some homegrown strange types.....I beleive the push for anti immunisation was all the rage not long ago...and now they're having whopping cough infant fatalities...

But thread drift..sorry...

Or too busy trying to make the Norfolk FDR say what they want it to say!

CC

I was diagnosed with depression four years ago, and have been working through it ever since. It's hard to describe the thought process and the lows you can go through when it's at its worst.

I implore anyone who feels like there isn't light at the end of the tunnel to have a crack at asking someone, anyone, for help. It doesn't have to be a shrink, it doesn't have to be a colleague, it can be as simple as explaining to your mate about why you feel down.

With the support of my employer and my mates, I'm feeling better than I have in my entire life, and flying. The only reason I got that support and thrown that lifeline was because I asked.

Together we're too strong to drown.

Ha, this stuff is hilarious if it wasn't so legally serious.

The accusation you are all making is a commercial pilot committing suicide flying a light aircraft into the water at 110kts (below cruise speed for a 172) as reported by ATC.

No note etc to our knowledge to family or friends, made a personal phone call before departing heaven forbid! reported to be in good spirit by those that immediately saw him prior and those responsible for signing him out (note to those individuals if suspected anything), operated vfr at dusk in an area familiar to him but in conditions that where deteriorating, reportedly hit the water at certainly NOT an excessive speed to normal flight of a C172, considering Vmo to be around 205kts from memory.

Hmmm, sounds to me maybe we should wait for the report before concluding the possibility of a pilot committing suicide.

After all, GA aircraft are 100% reliable. (Sarcasm).

JMHO.

Contrary to this accident, mental issues are a real potential problem for pilots.

DP,

I don't disagree. But in this instance let's stick to the facts we know.

Speculation doesn't help anyone, specially the family. Maybe we take a break from this thread until we know more facts because to me this could easily just be another unfortunate GA tragedy. Time will tell.

Once Bitten - have you actually read the thread and the various links provided?

For whatever reason, suicide is almost never announced as such by the authorities, it is always "no evidence of foul play", "no involvement by third parties" or "no suspicious circumstances" and as Squawk pointed out, the reference to Lifeline at the end of the press reports is the kicker. These aren't random happenings, the media publish these in response to a specific police briefing. The contents of the telephone call and text messages sent in flight will no doubt come out in the coroner's court, if that's what it is going to take to satisfy you, but until then I suggest you keep juvenile comments about beating off etc to yourself, sweeping this under the rug yet again doesn't help anyone.

I think a major problem affecting the pilot community is a lack of people continuity. Line pilots go to work, they see ground staff on a fleeting basis, they fly with another pilot or crew for a day or a few days. They then go their separate ways and may not see each other for some time. This process is then repeated ad nauseum. As a result, it's highly unlikely that any underlying problems emerge whereas in a 'normal' workplace where colleagues see other other day in and day out, it's easier to spot any difficulties a colleague may be having and address such problems. That mightn't always happen but it's a more probable than with what is essentially a transient workforce. A significant conundrum is how to fix!

Aussie Bob,


You make a dangerous assertion I would suggest.

No one is impervious to persecution and the "workforce consumption" style of management employed by airlines today, the "chin up son" attitude only serves to isolate the individual.

A decade or two of having your profession undermined and devalued by your employer, aided and abetted by the regulator, eats away at you. Especially when your life's work has equipped you with a skill set that no other industry has a need for. Any normal human being will feel helpless at this point.

I don't think for a second that we should hand over sole responsibility for our own happiness to a CEO, CASA or management, but I've seen good people work tirelessly to try and maintain a happy work/life balance only to have these bastards undermine their foundations; and they always have a bigger shovel than you.

Thanks for your candor Bob, but this job is a labyrinth for many, to which there is seemingly no end. What's your solution?

. .. . . . a necessary caution . .. . needed over and over again across this great forum . . .good health and happiness . . . freedom from mental anguish are needless to say vital matters especially when the opposite applies . . which spinex would agree warrant the greatest competency and informed interaction at many levels in society , government, health services , in the home and in schools. (Behoving all of us . . . every person with a shred of empathy . . .to take a close interest.)

Yup evidently, manners and an open mind for starters.

Yep. Four days after the aircraft has gone missing and PPrune has concluded that it was suicide, based on what has been reported by the media.

Well, there you go.

No wonder most of us in the professional aviation community no longer regard PPrune to be anywhere remotely near "professional" anymore.....

Dunda: spot on.

For all our shortcomings the PP Brigade didn't call the search off

My first post for quite some time.
This thread highlights the self interested attitudes prevalent amongst the modern "pilot". Here we have some one who has died, (presumably) and before he is even laid to rest his colleagues have used his misfortune to further their own agendas.

1. To date there is no absolute proof the poor soul involved in this incident was suffering any mental issues, nor that it was a contributing factor in the accident. Browse some of the threads of days gone by and you may see some of the people who accept the media version of events on this occasion, have in the past denegrated the quality of the same media reporting. Hypocrisy at its best. Do you trust the media or don't you? I don't!

2. Whether or not the media reports for the reasons behind the accident are true or false are irrelevant, we should consider the gentlemans family and how they would feel reading this rubbish. As is common in this industry he may well have brothers, uncles, fathers sisters or even his mother currently working in aviation and/or reading prune.

3. There is no proof, not even the slightest indication the gentleman involved had any issues with his employer or the CASA. Taking some ones death to push your own industrial agenda is the lowest of low, if you have done that, I suggest you take a few minutes to review your own attitude and seek some professional advice immediately.

Mental illness is a concern and should be discssed, maybe not under this thread. if your'e genuinely interested a new thread orientated towards that topic may be more prudent.


I started working in the industry in 1976 and I'm glad I'm out. It's not CASA, it's not the management, it's the selfish modern day "look at me" social media mindset displayed by Johnny come lately pilot. Its just too easy to play the internet hero/bully driving your own agenda when really you have nothing anyone wants to hear. Re-read your posts over the last "while" and see how much direct surport you have received. Are you really forwarding your issues successfully?

As for the comment regarding being university educated, I would be interested in hearing from some of the posters educating us on their background, my experience surports the view that most posters probably are university educated.
For the record, I was accepted into an "ancient" version of iniversity (crayons and blackboards), however I chose to be a pilot from a young age, so no shingle to hang over the door.

Jumping the gun . . so agreed with apologies on reflection . . . . . the media saying (The Byron Bay ECHO) -that -

" the pilot had been struggling with a broken marriage and rented a plane from a Lismore flying club before making a final phone call to his daughters. He disappeared into the ocean six nautical miles off Byron Bay."


..... may well be at worst a fabrication or superstition from hearsay.


(It will be quite a while before the coroner's conclusion is known about a professional pilot of considerable credibility allegedly being six nms off Byron Bay seas rough and beyond gliding distance from the beach in a single .)

Whether or not the deceased's demise came about through an ulterior self-destructive motive the fact that people are now thinking more about the alarming extent of mental health problems across the wide brown land cannot be a bad thing. As with the ill-fated Lubitz of Germanwings a year ago, whose action has served as a powerful heads up around the civilised world, regardless of whether the repercussions and proposed remedies are now seen to be in some ways good or in some ways ill-advised and counter-productive, people are looking at the problem in deadly earnest, (you might say). . It certainly bears repeating that we need with great earnestness to heed the inputs to this debate of those wiser heads who have a sound grasp of the problem and are well qualified (not necessarily academically) to give timely advice on the aspects of the problem in most urgent need of attention. ( Those who can see only a need for retribution now or cry murderer could put one in mind of Dicken's appalled description of the slavering howling mobs of men women and children that came to public exhibitions of the executions outside the prisons in London before such spectacles were legislated against in the mid-eighties.)

Well I don't think he was sightseeing out there.

If a suicide is obvious, it has implications for one's life insurance policy.



Mickjoebill

There's usually a 12 month "waiting period" on the policy.

. . .. . think you might mean supposition Fantome. .. . . . (many a slip between . .. )

Dear Captain D, with all due respect when this type thing lands in your lap it is hard.

Some deal with it in many different ways, but certain things point in certain directions and they are just "A" fact. Some will say no way- it was the plane until the day they also die. (there is no SMS or phone call saying the plane is Plucca Duck).

When we lost our loved ones a few Easters back - we still guess why "did", not why or how did it happen. We know the cause just not the exact why get there bit.

Ultralights Absolutely spot on. In fact, that is the warning sign that the depressed person is about to do something harmful. Note, it is the sudden appearance of happiness.

When someone is suffering from depression, they are usually too fatigued to muster up the energy to finish themselves. It's in the early recovery stages that they are most likely to harm themselves. Why? They are still depressed but now have enough energy to do the task.

One thing that concerns me WRT men and mental health is that they (you?) are expected to be like women. ie chat about your feelings openly and so on. However, you're men, men don't do that. But, men need social contact just like women - but in a different form. In my opinion, I would encourage guys to do bloke stuff together, such as play golf, go riding bikes, fish, whatever. It doesn't matter, what matters is that there's a group or even just one other, that you have regular contact with. This gets you out of the house and away from various pressures of life for an hour or so.

For sure, doing stuff with your wives/girlfriends/families is great and essential, but we're not men and so can't view the world in the same way.

Sorry for the ramble, but I really believe that men need "bloke" time with your mates.

Responding to Blitzk.
Reading your post struck a chord. What you posted clearly delineates current situations and circumstances in a variety of professions. Whether in Australia, America or other countries. There are many of us , pilots, lawyers, physicians, engineers who experience the very grinding, debilitating, debasing changes to our personal and professional lives. For physicians, you could substitute hospital admin instead of carrier for professional pilots. As professionals, we are educated and trained to respect experience, judgement and technical excellence in our quest for professional advancement, recognition and achievement of our potential. The commoditization of each of our respective professions is a truly sobering and disheartening circumstance. It goes against the core of the person who selects a profession, who strives to be the best of the best.
Of course we know little of the gentleman in question. However I think all many have experienced some if not much of his recent issues. One of the other posters mentioned isolation. Experience tells me that when marital discord happens, marital friends can scatter like quail. Personal isolation is real and very debilitating and happens rapidly.
This forum allows professional expression and enlightenment and frankly entertainment on many levels. I would suggest that participation here with like minded professionals, could reduce some of the isolation that he might of felt or at least provide a different perspective to his circumstances

Redsnail. Untralights is only right if the person has been showing signs of depression in the first place. If they have had a positive outlook on life for a long time even with life's challenges then that just shows their true nature.