lifejackets & legalities- bass strait
 

Hi all

I'm considering the legalities of a PVT bass straight crossing in a piston twin. Relevant CAO2.11 requires:

1) lifejackets if more than 50nm from land
2) liferaft if more than 100nm from land (or slightly longer as I can claim 115nm based on cruise speed)

My query is, that if I look at a CWS-WYY track then by complete fluke, it appears that I won't go beyond 50nm from land. Google earth puts 50nm from NE corner of 3 hummock island in exactly the same location on the CWS-WYY track as 50nm SE from Cape Liptrap.

Based on this I don't legally need lifejackets? (Should I is a different question....at least now I can take lilos instead :} ). Have I missed anything - I'm sufficiently jaded to struggle to believe that something in aviation is actually looking like being less expensive than more expensive!

UTR

Have you read the whole reg? It rings a bell that it says something like land suitable to conduct a landing on. Assuming these islands are suitable then legally you don't need to.

Obviously as you pointed out, life jackets might be a good idea anyway. :ok:

Doh - "Note 1" - you're right! Stretching the 50nm in that case just a little bit further to suitable ground/beaches probably makes it 50.1nm.

Jaded aviation sterotype - confirmed.....:{

Chances are you'll be height limited due to weather on the trip over and you'll be buzzing along at 1,500ft with no life jackets wishing that you were a better swimmer, knowing that the average man cannot swim 49 nautical miles!

It's true! It really is that simple.


One lifejacket per person, within easy reach, if you are more than 50nm from a suitable place to land in a twin.


You might want to have a quick read of CAO 20.6, as well, regarding what to do in case of engine out in a twin.

If i remember correctly there was an ATPL practice question similar.
If the total distance between two landing points was 100nm apart then the need for life jackets would not be needed. The explanation given was that if you left the coast at point A flew out 50nm you are still within range of point A and also within range of the another landing spot 50nm further onwards at point B a total of 100nm.

... and don't necessarily expect the cavalry to get it right all the time.


https://www.atsb.gov.au/media/5226548/198302284.pdf

Still, it may be prudent to carry life jackets anyway, the beauty of them not being required is that they can now be something sensible and robust like a Stormy Seas or similar "aviation use not approved" design.

This one as well as the one John T mentioned.
Investigation: 197502854 - Bristol 170 MK 21/A1, VH-SJQ, near Cape Paterson, Victoria, 10 May 1975

CC

A sad one, that. The radio operator was a very talented and enthusiastic young chap whom I trained through the CPL theory subjects .. he would have had a very bright career ahead of him had he been given the opportunity to avoid this mishap.

Be like a good scout..
 

Be prepared.:ok::ok:

why anyone would want to cross the cold deep waters of Bass Strait without being covered for any contingency...one of which may be a splash down..has got me.

The weight of 4 life jackets is bugger all, and why not have them on board anyway... if not even island hopping. Even tracking coastal some places with rugged terrain.. a water landing may be the only option. Ditto over tiger country and there's a reservoir up ahead. No contest.

I'm no swimmer, so jackets, raft, flares, smoke, tucker box, water, fishing line are all cheap insurance should the worst happen.
And a 6 pack. If its a nice sunny day you can sit back and celebrate your survival event.:ok: And give thought to how you would be if you were just dog paddling..!!

I certainly wouldn't like to be the poor guy hanging in a jacket in the bloody cold Bass Strait waiting for a pick up that never comes.

Remember Dicks doco..."Search without Rescue". Bureaucratic bummer ...and a life lost.:mad::mad:

God, or whatever her name is, helps those that help themselves.:ok:

I reckon they should be worn rather than just carried. Two people alongside each other, both panicking and trying to put on a jacket correctly wouldn't be very easy.

Drifting to single engine aircraft, I have see a number of people putting their jackets behind the back seat still sealed nicely in their plastic bags.

Most pilots don't realise until they fly down there the first time that there's not much chance of simply ditching next to an island and swimming ashore. Some of the "islands" are literally a jagged rock with a 50ft vertical surface protruding from out of the 5 metre waves. Be prepared for a potentially long wait time whilst bobbing in the shark infested waters!

UTR is a pressurised twin who will be cruising above FL200. He won't be flying along looking at the whitecaps.

And 'Legalities' aside, a 'nice option' to have is a GME 310 GPS EPIRB in ya top left pocket.
And register it with AMSA. Can be done 'on line'.

Yes, it should fit, they are 'cheap' insurance, and last for around 8 years or so before requiring a 'new battery'.

The reason 'new battery' is in inverted commas, 'coz, as at 1/6/14, when I enquired last, they are a sealed unit and the battery cannot be accessed to be replaced.....they will sell you another at a 'reduced rate' instead....so the Canning Vale WA GME shop said....

Cheers :ok:

All that Griffo said plus..

Forget the cumbersome lifejackets of years ago. These days, they are known as 'Personal Floatation Devices' and are very comfortable to wear whilst flying. Perhaps go to BCF and buy one for each pax? I went for a "PFD Manual Level 150/150N." These importantly keep ones head out of the water.

Cost? Less than $100 each so a no brainer.

(UTR, The lilos have only been "tested" heading north. Not south.. :ok:)

Hey UTR, do the HUET course if you're gunna head down there regularly :ok: mate, buy the slimline life jackets that Jabba wears when he heads down there.

Thank you (mostly) for the considered input.

The thread topic was lifejackets and legalities. I've figured out that there are routes across bass straight that I can take, are almost direct and be legal to fly without a lifejacket that is CASA approved.

If I can take that route then yes, a PFD or something more modern and suitable than the small set of CASA approved vests becomes possible.

But what I can't do legally (by a few hundred metres or less) is fly CWS-WYY direct or WYY-WON direct on the IFR routes with only a BCF bought special. Crazily, I can buy those, wear them as people have suggested - but so long as the bagged version are nearby.

Horses for courses - I'm not sure what survival chances are (unless you have a lilo of course) for any ditching in Bass Straight - especially with the kids and so my preferred insurance is a second engine and plenty of altitude.

For future reference - I looked at prices on some of the Australian pilot websites for the RFD aviation jackets - over $100 more than ringing the manufacturer direct.

Just a note which might be stating the bleeding obvious, but if you do get a PFD from BCF or wherever, make sure it doesn't have automatic inflation (i.e. auto inflates when it contacts water), makes it very hard to escape an aircraft with an inflated life jacket.

Legalities aside, crossing Bass Strait, all a lifejacket is going to do is give you a false sense of security. You ain't going to last long, as in, all it will do is prolong the suffering.

As megan said, the numbers aren't good, depending where a ditching occurs a life jacket will do 3 tenths of f#@call. A raft will give you some hope, but you'll have to leave one of the kids at home :E

I totally agree with you Dexta.


My "PFD Manual Level 150/150N" is manual for that very reason. And I bring it along when I go boating too.

Last time I replaced my GME GPS EPRIB, you could buy new ones from ebay cheaper than GME's battery replacement price. And they will cheerfully tell you this on the phone!

I believe the Bass Straight survival time in the water is 20 minutes. In my mind altitude a) gives you the longest time between mayday and ditching so that the time to rescue is shorter and b) increases your chance of ditching near a ship or something.

But, you've got to love the question to a 747 pilot about why he flies a 4 engine 747 and the answer being because there are no aeroplanes with 5 engines.

Ahh but life jackets in Jet aircraft are a classic example of where the perception overrides reality. As far as I know (happy to be corrected) there has never been a life saved by a lifejacket in a jet aircraft. Either the crash was not survivable or the passengers/crew survived without needing them eg the hudson river. But still every flight carries them and we are told how to put them on every time.....

Back to little aircraft and this is another example of where CASA requiring approval leads to less safe outcomes. Most good fitting, comfortable, crotch strap equipped lifejackets do no carry the CASA seal of approval. Try going for a swim one day in a pool in a casa approved lifejacket. Then imagine doing is in the open ocean in rough water, dazed and confused having just watched your aircraft sink beneath the waves. Try the same thing with a modern life-jacket unapproved for aircraft but approved for sailing and then tell me you would be happy with a CASA approved one.

Norfolk Island??????

But generally, I agree. I often wonder how many people would successfully get them on? I have put timex ones on and pulled the cord. Its not as easy as the cabin crew make out.

After being the initial regs expert smart ass. Where does it say you need a "casa/aviation approved" lifejacket? Can't find it anywhere

from the same CAO 20.11

What standard is approved by CASA?

Yep old akro, Norfolk island is the one that comes closest to a lifejacket being useful and yet only half the occupants of the aircraft were wearing one when it ditched according to the ATSB report. All survived so you do have to wonder did the lifejacket add that much.

In smaller aircraft the impact with the water is much more likely to be survivable and so life jackets do make more sense. The kinetic energy in an impact at 40 knots is significantly less than one at 100 knots.

The coroners report into the 1998 hobart Yacht race has frightening reading about the real world performance of of lifejackets like what casa mandate.

As somebody the teaches HUET and sea survival I can't stress enough the importance of lifejackets and TRAINING.

It's all good and well to go and spend your hard earned dollars on a raft PFD's EPIRBS and so on but unless you have been trained to use it in an emergency you have as much hope of doing it right as I do of ever getting the money to finish my PPL.

If you are operation over cold water you need thermal protection :eek:

Here are two videos I use in my courses regarding cold water:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_96YEPAdA2Y
https://youtu.be/_96YEPAdA2Y

Cold water PFD
http://survitecgroup.com/products/shark-lap-jacket
Warm Water
http://survitecgroup.com/products/mk28-passenger
Spend the $450 and do a HUET course of you are operation over water on a frequent basis.

It's going back a long time, but in the late '60s we did a test of the available life jackets and not too many got the nod, principally because they would not float an unconscious person face up, or on their back if you like, keeping the face out of the water. Spray hoods are another necessity, as it's been found folks drown from wind driven spray and spume.

John / Tullamarine
Bristol 170 mk. 21/A1 VH-SJQ Air Express MEB/LST
I have read the final accident report. I see that the
radio officer was holder of a PPL licence in addition
to the required radio operators licence. Can you
remember if the P1 and R/O were originally rostered
to fly this flt on 10/05/1975. or was one of them a
replacement for someone reporting sick?
When ditching, Do you have an idea if the a/c would
have been "Nose high" with both wings level, before
contact with the sea ?
I remember my Flying Instructor Sterling Preston,
mentioning this accident, whilst flying with him at BWU
I think he may have flown for Air Express before
moving to NSW,

Lance Shippey

Let's not forget the tragic loss of the Grand Commander VH-WJC on the 17th July 1983.
One person in water sighted by numerous aircraft; deficiencies in SAR Ops led to the loss of this life.
Life jacket training is very important.
I know of one biz-jet operator; Gulfstream.. where the owner and his entire family has done the water swim etc at the QF facility in Sydney. Money well spent!

Best jackets today made by Spinlock (UK) but not cheap and you would need to convert to manual inflation. They can be fitted with a spray hood.

https://www.spinlock.co.uk/en/categories/lifejackets

I've lost two friends to drownings in what were normal weather conditions in what should have been perfectly survivable situations. In both cases the man overboard was observed, rescue started immediately and help arrived within five minutes, which proved too late. RIP Tosser and Maxie (ex TAA).

Can you remember if the P1 and R/O were originally rostered to fly this flt on 10/05/1975. or was one of them a replacement for someone reporting sick?

I was an engineering consultant to Air Express at the time but I have no idea what the crew scheduling may have been for the flight. The loss was a great sadness to me as the RO was one of the brightest CPL students with whom I have ever had the pleasure to work.

Do you have an idea if the a/c would have been "Nose high" with both wings level, before contact with the sea ?

That would be total conjecture. However, there was no suggestion that I can recall that there may have been a loss of control.

Sterling Preston ... he may have flown for Air Express before moving to NSW,

Stirl and I go back a long way .. I don't recall that he flew with Air Express but you would need to speak to him on that point. He was with EWA for many years and, last I heard, is still in Albury running Oberon. Probably 4-5 years or so since I last had contact with him.

John Tullamarine,
Thanks for the info. I believe Stirling is still at
Albury. I remember with great affection, the time
I shared the flying with Stirling and Cheryl, his
wife in VH-SVW PA28. We flew Bankstown /
Canberra / Albury / Moorabbin. I was to continue
my training with Sterling over a weekend in
Victoria. I stayed with Stirling's Mum and Dad,
We visited some great airfields, one restoring
1950 light aircraft. The highlight was landing the
Cherokee at Tullamarine, and being asked by
ATC if I could increase speed to to 130kts, as
I had an Air Nauru B727 behind me on finals.
Having reconfirmed Cherokee Sierra Victor
Whiskey, The Aussie Air Nauru captain replied.
"Don't worry mate, Your bloody wings will come
off, I'll slow down". I did a flapless at MEL. and
cleared the main pretty sharpish.
Stirling had taught me "Stabilized Approach
Concept'", which I found easy, It got a couple of
comments, when getting checked out in the U.K.
He also worked before BWU in Malaysia as
instructor with MAS,

Lance Shippey