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-   -   Private Instrument Rating Problem with ADS-B (https://www.pprune.org/pacific-general-aviation-questions/563724-private-instrument-rating-problem-ads-b.html)

Dick Smith 29th Jun 2015 07:40

Private Instrument Rating Problem with ADS-B
 
A friend of mine who has a late model Cessna 182 with Garmin 1000 unit decided to get his private instrument rating. He was then told he won’t be able to fly IFR in a little over 12 months’ time unless he has ADS-B Out. They then told him that the GPS he has at the moment is a TSO129 and he would have to upgrade it to a TSO146. The quoted price – wait for it - $33,000 minimum from a Sydney-based avionics shop for the ADS-B and GPS upgrade!

My friend only flies in uncontrolled airspace so he will derive no advantages at all from this hugely expensive modification that has been forced on him. I understand that in the USA you can have ADS-B Out with a TSO129 GPS. Can someone confirm this?

This is an absolute catastrophe. My friend has now decided not to do his private instrument rating as the cost will be too great.

So, safety isn’t improved – it has definitely decreased.

KRviator 29th Jun 2015 07:55

That's correct, Dick, the US does not currently require a TSO146 - or any TSO'd actually - position source for ADS-B.So long as your GPS can be recognised by the transponder or UAT, you're good to go. That being said, you cannot use a non-TSO'd position source for separation as we can here, and that has recently been mandated somewhere, IIRC.

Your mate has been told a bunch of horseshyte. You do not need a TSO146 GPS navigator for ADS-B, you only need the position source, being the GPS puck itself. Naturally this us usually incorporated into a navigation reciever like a GNS-430 that then feeds the ADS-B transponder, but it is not required. You can install a stand-alone ADS-B transmitter if you so choose, for perhaps 5-10K.

rr007 29th Jun 2015 07:57

Why was he told he couldn't fly IFR in 12months? I thought the Mandate was for all IFR aircraft Feb 2017 (about 20 months away). I'm assuming his aircraft is already registered and as you pointed out only flies in Class G.

Ixixly 29th Jun 2015 08:18

According to the CASA website:

Civil Aviation Safety Authority - Key timelines

by the 6th of February 2016:

Existing IFR aircraft engaged in AWK or private operations 1 x TSO C145/146 or TSO C196 GNSS required; or 1 x TSO C129 plus 1 x ADF or VOR, if he has a G1000 then he should be fine with TSO C129 and the VOR until 2nd Feb 2017.

Unless the C182 he has was registered in Aus after the 6th Feb 2014:

IFR aircraft first registered on or after 6 February 2014 ADS-B required

So this may be his issue. From what I can see though Garmin Sell the GTX 33 for about $4,200USD Brand New which allows for ADS-B out, and unless installation is close to $25,000AUD I can't imagine how it will cost him the amount that they quoted.

https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/in-t...3/prod202.html

I have although read about the G1000 possibly requiring a Software Update to talk to the GT33 and this could be the issue thusly requiring some additional equipment to be installed, but still seems pretty steep. Maybe someone else can fill in the gaps?

no_one 29th Jun 2015 08:23

Dick,

This document specifies the Australian requirements for ADS-B, refer to page 12 for the list of acceptable specifications for GPS sources for ads-b

http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/...al-18MAR12.pdf

There are several options available that should be significantly less than the $33k price you nominated, eg:

Freeflight Systems | NextGen Avionics - ADS-B Solutions - WAAS/GPS Sensors
or
Lynx® ADS-B MultiLink Surveillance Systems | Models

Not quite yet available and few technical details:
https://www.appareo.com/aviation/ads-b-out/

The US manufacturers are just getting organised and so expect a few announcements in the next few months.

peterc005 29th Jun 2015 08:26

The G1000 is TSO146

https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/in-t.../prod9717.html

"dual TSO-c146a WAAS-GPS receivers"

He should just upgrade to an ADSB transponder. Say, $5k for the unit and another $5k for an Engineering Order and installations. Possibly an EO is not needed if the documentation already exists.

Clearedtoreenter 29th Jun 2015 08:36

Not what I've heard.

THEY DO need a TSO146 or WAAS position source in the U.S. for ADS-B out.

If you have an early (2004-2006) Cessna G1000 you're basically stuffed because it's TSO129. You have to buy the the Cessna WAAS upgrade, which I think is actually nearer $40K in Aus now. Then you need to change the GTX33 transponder to GTX33ES, which is another $4k or so. ($2000 for the exchange transponder and an engineering order and some labour.)

If you have a later Cessna G1000, you have TSO146 GPS and so all that's needed then is the GTX33ES transponder, which is basically slide in. But you still need an engineering order because it's an 'alteration' and Cessna have not approved it, so it will still cost you $4K... Oh, and you'll have to wait because you can't get the transponder due to 'high demand'.

Some folks say there are cheaper ways to do it by fitting a separate GPS source and Trig transponder or something.... But why would you have state of the art avionics and then cobble up something like that?

On the one hand you could say Cessna have let their customers down badly by not providing viable 1900ES ADS-B solutions, particularly for those with factory TSO129 GPS, on the other hand, why should they? They don't need it until 2020 in the U.S. and really it's a stupid pointless requirement for a 182 flying at 130kt below 10k anyway.

Dick Smith 29th Jun 2015 09:06

I think his is a 2005 model 182. Which is modern as GA I aircraft go!

RatsoreA 29th Jun 2015 10:09

Install a garmin GDL-88, that has its own internal GPS source and ADS-B out. Then, you get poor mans TCAS into the bargin, because the 88 can receive ADS-B directly from other aircraft in range, and will display it on the G1000. It's about $4-$5k just for the unit, and has a very comprehensive STC AML list, so no EO, just need to get it installed.

Tidbinbilla 29th Jun 2015 11:14

This may be more appropriate If asked on the AOPA forums.


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