Cut the rhetoric, speculation and slander Dick.

If you have any evidence that the RAAF caused these deaths I'm sure we all want to hear it, but we all know you don't!

Last time you actually got a meeting with the head honchos.

At this race, hell will need to freeze over before you get another meeting
and they change anything now.

" What if the fighter fragged himself and had to eject and a wayward jet wobbled through that lane and into the side of your aircraft?"

Hi There ATC One,

The statistical probability of this happening would be what do you think?
How any times has a "fighter fragged himself and had to eject" in Australia in the last 50 years say? And then what chance of hitting another aircraft? Anyone fearful of such odds would live a fearful life indeed. Personally I would accept such a chance rather than a SE flight over tiger country anytime, let alone NVMC in crappy weather.

Dick has used extreme language to gain traction in an issue that has festered for too long. He has been promised change, and nothing happens. This course is his choice. He must therefore wear the approbium (I think that's a word...flak and disapproval anyway) that comes with that choice.
Nevertheless Willy should have a corridor down the coast at higher altitudes in my opinion.
More flying should be done at Tindal perhaps. While not wishing to go off thread (although perhaps it isn't) with no BHP to protect why is a vital fighter main base so close to the sea? How vulnerable is that?
My view is that either they equitably share the airspace voluntarily or they lose some of it.

Hi 500n. In a previous life I was want to publicly criticise CASA. The Chairman of CASA threatened not to meet with my organisation if that continued. My response was "Unless change is effected, these meetings have no value"

Bill
Exactly, but you still didn't get what you wanted so you lost as they didn't change.
The military is not like civvy organisations, you can't bully them into doing things and being 20 year career people, the junior Fl Lt at Willy ATC will take the memory of this stoush all the way though his career until he leaves, as will everyone else. And everyone else who matters would have read Brown's press release in a signal.

No one has yet answered my question as to WHY they have refused to open up a corridor or a wider area or the other things you are asking. IMHO, if you can't specify why they won't, how can you formulate a strategy to provide a viable alternative ???


"More flying should be done at Tindal perhaps."

I doubt it is just flying. A lot of other factors come into play for Williamtown, including the other two services and training areas.

Yep, and what a sensational job you did at 'YOUR' organisation!! It went from being a strong, united, relevant voice to white noise under that impressive stewardship :rolleyes:

You and Dick will make great nursing home partners in 10 years time, over a glass of prune juice, bemoaning how if the stupid people had only listened you couldabeen champions..



Like I said, this has all bitten Dick on the bum. His chance of any reform now is patently LESS than it has ever been. In fact, going by Browny's statement I'd say the odds are exactly zero

No progress was achieved the nice way Hempy.
I would not write Dick off just yet. It would be perhaps wiser to not underestimate his appeal out in the real world .
I doubt that Geoff Browne will front up to debate the matter on Channel 7 as invited to do......

500N,
Yes I have, look back at previous posts, the "Dog in a Manger" attitude of the RAAF to airspace, stemming from an attitude described as "We won WW11, it all belongs to us".

That phrase is not mine, but is attributable to an AVM, long since retired, at a conference on airspace. The words are a direct quote, I was right across the table.

Bill Pike and I have been around long enough to remember when high level airspace over Sydney was RAAF Restricted, H-24. Inbound to Sydney, we would have to start descending well before a normal TOD, to remain clear of military restricted area. Too long ago now, to remember the top of civilian controlled airspace, but it was well below our normal cruising levels. In those days, on departure, Richmond zone was closed to us, we always had to fly around.

The political muscle of the airlines had that nonsense reduced over the years, because the airlines would not accept the financial cost of "avoiding" collisions with, on average, zero military aircraft.

Non-airline civil aviation in Australia does not have that political muscle, so the RAAF, and the Australian military in general, retains unnecessary restrictions on unnecessarily large volumes of airspace "because they can".

At least Dick tries, and keeps trying, to make improvements, those of you who are in GA should thank him for it.

A lot of you should open your eyes, have a look at what other countries, comparable to Australia ,manage to do,(don't come up with the stupid China example, or maybe we should, as ALL PR China airspace is run by the PLA Air Force, that is what we would get if the RAAF ran all Australian airspace) with safety records as good as, and in the case of US, better than Australia.

Tootle pip

I don't understand why it has taken 33 years for Dick to get his knickers in a knot. As for the umbrage about preventing future tragedies, how many have happened since? As far as the general public is concerned, this was old news 32 years and 11 months ago. If the guy had just killed himself, with all due respect to the searcher's of today, no one would probably be bothering. The Great Unwashed certainly don't care. All Dick is doing is pissing off the military, and unfortunately anything he does now is, unfairly or not, tainted by a smell of self interest.
The flight was conducted under the flight and airspace regimes of the day. Second guessing or applying today's standards won't work. The pilot knew he couldn't plan and fly direct WLM or coastal (irrespective of whether he should have been able to) so based his flight on those requirements. Once his planned route was no longer viable, he should have looked for alternatives or landed elsewhere and waited it out. He painted himself into a corner, and paid the price.
In my time in FS, I heard the final words of at least two flights where the enviroment outdid experience. One guy was trying to get through the Kilmore Gap. Didn't hear too many calls afterwards for the MEL Control Zone or overlying CTA to be reduced/abolished because it made pilots fly into bad terrain. That guy f*cked up.
This guy f*cked up. If they'd found the wreckage we wouldn't even be talking about it.

Bill,

Would there be any point in a debate? Exactly what would be the debate topic?

If the topic were "Did the actions of ATC that night significantly contribute to the crash of VH-MDX" then I think he could easily show that the answer is 'no'.

All of us, however, know that Dick would shift the topic and start asking why his ideas (right or wrong as they may be) were not being enacted by the various authorities.

Traffic,
Where did you get that idea, you must have been hiding under a rock for the past 33 years. Dick's attempts to get some rational into Australia's airspace management and to reduce the volume of military airspace has been ongoing, and for longer than 33 years.

Get a copy of Dick's book, "Two Years in the Aviation Hall of Doom" and read about all the RAAF attempts to prevent his transit of Richmond zone, to fly to Mt. Wilson, when the only aeronautical activity was gliding. It got to the ridiculous stage that the Richmond tower would not accept requests for clearance on VHF, it had to be by phone. So Dick installed a phone in his helicopter, the RAAF decreed that the request for clearance had to be made from a land line. Apparently a phone in an aeroplane was not a real phone. Anything to prevent entirely legitimate access to this airspace, despite a protocol allowing civilian access.

It is a testament to bloody minded attitude of the military, and the RAAF in particular, that so little has changed. In an "us versus them", military versus civilian, the military is winning.

I recall and Army proposal, probably in the '70s, to establish a new base west of Dubbo, they declared a proposed H-24, zero to unlimited Prohibited (not just restricted ) area, with a diameter of 100NM (or was that radius), with a proposed commencement date. It completely screwed up an extraordinary % of all operation west of Sydney, and between Brisbane and Melbourne, and, of course, isolated Dubbo and Narromine. There was not even a proposal for corridors, just 100nm, 0-unlimited, P.

That is an example, in the extreme, of how far removed from the civilian world the military can get. Of course it never got anywhere, in part because too many politicians, State and Commonwealth, would not be able to fly home, and an even greater number would have been disrupted. The uproar from the AATA and BARA was really something!!

Tootle pip!!

I can't recall all that has been said here and there but I can't recall that Dick actually blamed the controllers of that night. He refers I believe to a more generic "RAAF" in that if procedures were otherwise, and such changes that had been, I am advised, agreed previously but never enacted, were in force, this nonsense of flight planning out over tiger country when healthier country is available would not have happened, and the people would most likely have survived.
While I am no longer actively flying, one might say that all i worked for was "self interest ", that is for the benefit of the industry in which i worked and thus myself. I recall some one descibing the now deceased Geoff Westwood, then President of AIPA "Maybe he is doing this to benefit himself but whilsoever it benefits the rest of us as well he gets my vote "

Can I again remind people:

- Clearance through military airspace: granted. Clearance through civil airspace (S1): denied.

- Clearance through military airspace for coastal transit: granted. Clearance through civil airspace for coastal transit (Sydney APP): pending when MDX took FPR.

At NO time was any delay attributable to the military controllers NOR military airspace restrictions.

Channel 7 Sunday Night Program About VH-MDX
 

Don't say that evilroy, it doesn't help their agenda.

where's the +1 on that post :)

:ok:

Leadsled

Yes, well, he's retired. The same as a lot of blokes who said "that's the way it has always been done" !

No I haven't been under a rock for 33 years. I've been in the industry that long. My first career fell victim to one of Dick's crusades. As I said, Dick only seems to get involved when he can't fly somewhere he wants. It seems that that's how the authorities view him too.

(rest of rant deleted as feel better now)

As i said, the accident happened due to the conditions prevailing at the time. No-one else has since. It's a non issue as far as most people are concerned. The general public don't understand it and don't care. Dick throwing spurious allegations around on TV is just something to titillate them until "The Voice" comes on.

Dora
Let me say for a start I'm not anti raaf or military.
But I can say that my views on this post may be the only ones but in the real life of civilian aviation I'm not alone.
A few examples.
NRC for spelling mistakes in log book. Awi ex mil and when he was a c/e he didn't fill log books out. Or filing cannot not locked or door to the store open

Or what about they guy that wonted me charge with insubordination as he marched of to the office. Strange he was a srg in the raaf unlicensed I was in charge of the job the lic eng on the job etc.

Or the top gun that pushed the wind farms in the southern highlands. Top gun.
Top gun was his on words he described himself not mine not others.

The list can continue. These ex mil are cause tremendous damage to the industry. I've seen as many others have. The difference is I say it most don't. They extremly vindictive to the enths degree. Same as this issue. They won't give an inch because they don't won't to loose face or power. There is no need for the resicted airspace that this post is about. Not one person has come forward and given one reason for it. Not once did dick blame any one person but the establishment. Yet you continue to say that. It's more knock the tall poppy down situation. I don't always agree what dick dose or says but on this I agree with him.
Cheers

What you say is partially factually correct Evilroy but avoids the issue. (I have yet to read that a clearance via coastal was "pending". That's not the way I read Sector one's remarks that "controlled areas are non VMC" )
No one has blamed the RAAF controllers on that night (I don't think so anyway)
The refusal of the RAAF to allow flight planning along the coast at the planning stage caused MDX to flight plan the way he did. It is ridiculous that the "normal" route is via MQD unless otherwise approved. As Flt Lt D.D. Sullivan (later Capt with Cathay) once said "this game cannot be made 100% safe but one must always keep the odds on one's side when one can"
Flight Planning over MQD instead of coastal does not meet that criteria. That procedure should be altered.

"They won't give an inch because they don't won't to loose face or power."


So, you need to think strategically.

Those of you who want change are salesmen and need to think strategically.

Find a way for the RAAF to maintain control, not lose face or power but allow what you want - and that giving an inch won't be taken a mile which is often how the mil (and many others) see things - like Green issues - so they just stone wall everything.

Read below, particularly page eight of twenty:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...psdb2fb3c6.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...ps2dc8acb7.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...pse490600a.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...ps9d4a364c.jpg

Good lord mate, are you still able to walk with that massive chip on your shoulder? I have no doubt there are self serving ex RAAFies out there, much the same as there are RPT/CPL's out there who are also pricks.

The way you attempt to tar ex military with the same brush is astonishing, and it obvious that you are the ignorant one, not the supposed evil ex mil guys.

Sorry no chip on my shoulders I can say that. We'll not be fare to say all ex mil are but what I and others have seen not much that can be said really.

Message for yr rite
 

To yr rite
For Christ's sake, PLEASE STOP POSTING such illiterate, incomprehensible crap.

Thanks Evilroy hadn't read that.
Changes things as i knew them a bit but planning coastal would have I believe changed more. I accept that the pilot did not do well, in fact he should have been selling life insurance IMHO, not doing an NVMC (so-called but really IFR) flight that night, however the odds might have just stayed his way had he been allowed to flight plan coastal. That's the point I think. Moving the rhetoric aside, the question is, "Should someone planning the same trip tonight be entitled to flight plan, and expect, clearance coastal?"
My opinion is "yes"

Thanks for sharing that Bill.

In essence this is what Dick is trying to facilitate with his request for change, but it's turned into a noisy turf war between civvy street and the mil, and nobody seems to be listening.

Precisely. Find a way to keep the odds on side for both civvy street and the Mil and everyone will benefit.

""Should someone planning the same trip tonight be entitled to flight plan, and expect, clearance coastal?""

Go in with that attitude and you won't get anywhere, in fact, even using the word "entitled" will get you a big NO.


You are not just asking for whatever you are asking, this is what you are up against. From the RAAF Web site.

"It is Air Force's intent that RAAF Base Williamtown remain as the nation’s main fighter pilot training base, and it will house most of the planned F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Lightning aircraft."

So, you have the brightest and the best, training the brightest and the best and wanting the best training area which they currently have - sea, Bombing and gunnery ranges with all the inherent safety rules required, low flying, Army, Navy assets for joint training and probably 100 other things I have't thought of. As such you are up against far more than just ATC procedures. Also, the CAS is one of them and always will be.

The Government does not spend $12 billion to then limit how they train because some recreational flyers want to fly in a straight line instead of having to go via another route - I know that is a short, blunt and rude way of putting it but that is how others will see it within.

So, "Find a way for the RAAF to maintain control, not lose face or power and not hinder training but allow what you want - and that giving an inch won't be taken a mile" and you might actually get somewhere. Until then, you will spend another 30 years doing what you have been doing which seems to be getting nowhere.

The military run the country in Thailand 500N.
The politicians run it here.
It's because the last thirty years has not seen progress that Dick is out there rocking the boat.
It will be very interesting to see what transpires.

Cwo no I won't. Just don't read my post simple.
Cheers

12 billion $$$$$$ yep I here yeah so find some other route trouble is there is no other route. The route is raaf. How long before they destroy one of these latest and greatest to a smoky hole in the ground.

Cheers

500N
How do you think the USAF, USN, US Marines or the US Army get on, without that long list of requirements ---- of course, they have the same considerations, but exclusion of civil traffic from all their airspace, just to make their life easier, isn't an option.
For the RAAF it is the easy option, let's say it the "Australia military culture" to disrespect and disregard the entirely reasonable needs of civil aviation.
Indeed, civil aviation is entitled to be able to operate with the same freedom that is enjoyed in the US.
Unfortunately, and wrongly, Australian law is on the side of the military, unlike US legislation, which, broadly speaking, requires the joint civil/military control of US national airspace, for the use and benefit of all potential users of the airspace.
Tootle pip!!

PS: CWO Geoff, ignore the turkey who calls him her, or itself yr right, in posts on some threads he/she/it writes reasonably normal English, the idiot savant without the savant is an affectation.

They might run the country but they don't run the mil !

When it comes to certain things in the mil, the "sacred cows" as one name that has been used, pollies often find it is easier to let things be than rock the boat. Especially when they spend all those lovely dollars on toys that pollies like having photos taken next to !

And the military is very much in Abbott's good books at the moment
having made him look good on a number of occasions.

Lead
I see that word "entitled" again ;) :O

I am not saying you (or the others) are wrong, in fact I can well see merit in what you say / want. I am ex mil and know full well what attitude we have / had, especially if you are part of the "sacred cows" !

I am trying to suggest what you need to consider in what you are trying to achieve which is effectively sell something to the RAAF that they don't seem to want.

So, I'll say it again, "Find a way for the RAAF to maintain control, not lose face or power and not hinder training but allow what you want - and that giving an inch won't be taken a mile" and you might actually get somewhere.

Oh leady such words again. As was told told me the self opinionated Pratt of pprune don't worry about him. So I won't.

Cheers

500n. The problem as I see it is there is really no other route around unless you go over the range. Clearly that's the most worst route to take when there is an easier option.
Still no one person has said why it has to be like it is
Cheers

yr right,

You purport to work in the aviation industry in some capacity, an industry where clear, concise and effective communication can literally mean the difference between life and death.

Your posts are unintelligible, and what little of them is understood, is ill informed.

I would be more scared to be flying somewhere where you are near me and I have to communicate with you, than any amount of partial panel IFR over the Tops.

For the want of someone to spell and grammar check you before your post, any relevant message you *may* have is lost in your terrible Signal-to-noise-ratio.

Reading you 1's, please try an alternate means!

"They might run the country but they don't run the mil !"
Not sure about that 500N.
When Defence Minister Smith wanted the Commandant of the ADF College treated (in my opinion) unfairly and without due (or any) process the defence chiefs crumbled quickly enough. I was quite ashamed of them really.

Bill

Yes, you are correct. Same as the charging 3 soldiers.
But in the end he was reinstated, fully.


Yr right
Understand. So instead of asking for the lot, ask for a small window at certain times, like weekends or whatever.

It needs to be a compromise. At present you are asking for the world
And you are night going to get it.

Over it.
 

Some Trolls have a very 'distinctive' footprint and methodology. Some are really quite clever; a good example is the 'dyslexic' ploy. Make your posts so bad, that after a while no one gives a continental about reading the thread, because the last post was – Oh, that fwit - again; so the thread slides away. The next ploy is to 'jump in', immediately after a 'read' poster, this has the effect of nullifying the 'good' post to later readers, again making the thread 'droop' through MIF (acronym:Massive Interest Failure)

Bill, Dick, Leady. et al: folk I respect and value; you are being 'worked' (do the numbers) – and welcome to a battle ground where the rules are writ ever so slightly different; not by gentlemen.

May the farce be with you.

Can anyone post a copy of the Williamtown restricted areas at that time?

Particularly R589 and R591B which were active that night to 10,000. What were the dimensions?

I have found when they man the tower for a few RPT flights- say on a weekend when the fighters are not flying - they also activate a number of restricted areas.

Why do they do this?

By the way , the only time I want to fly this route at night I do it in the CJ3 and it's possible to plan through the airspace . That was changed years ago.

My sole intention of this campaign is help reduce the chance of such an accident happening again.

Also can someone post details of the Mooney fatal accident.

Dick

How do you know the fighters are not flying ?

Secondly, the raaf / army has more than just fighters
And they do operate on weekends.