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To add to summary, anyone questioning self appointed gurus has only half a brain.
Do not rest on arms reversed with fixed baynets, which has as much to do with ECi cylinder AD as some of the posts here |
Mmm nasty cut may we assume lol. Know one has said when these cly are failing yet either. 1,2 3,4 life what when how. Anyone can produce data. That's why it's published and reviewed in medicine and science. But more on that later. I'm ahead $140 on two up. Mmm what are the odds on that.
So it can be taken that creamie not in the USA and more than likely not in a wheel chair either. Cheers |
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Or maybe
Tcm sb M89-18 And Sb03-3 And Mandatory sb m91-6 But what would they know there data is published. Cheers |
There are no free rides.
Cheers |
Whats with the "shamrock" web site? Why not take the link directly off the official Lycoming website?
Anyway the fact that I am able to run LOP successfully makes a mockery of the statement that for 98% of pilots it would be very hard to get right. If I can do it anyone can. |
When I click on the highlighted Lycoming web site on your post yr right, it takes me nowhere?
When I go to the proper Lycoming web site yr right, and put in search SSP 700, nothing comes up? Whats goin on yr right?? |
just tried it works for me.
cheers |
Yep I just logged into shamrocks site and it is just something they have taken the liberty of making up themselves.
Mind you they have been in business since 2006 so would have a massive amount of data to back up their b/s? As the Tui ad says...yr right! |
Maybe it's a cheap Chinese nock off what you think ? There are no old bold pilots.
Now where is the data on these head failures that started this post before it became another free ads campaign. Cheers |
It's a real document and you all know it is. But no have yr $10 and gamble it's your life's not mine.
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Just goes to 404 error? Lycomings web site doesn't have dot textron in it. You must have a special computer yr right?
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It's only real in shamrocks rotax world. Anyway i've had a good anzac day (thanks to all those who made it possible, including my father) and am now sitting down to a cold beer while I watch the Blues hopefully beat the Waratah's.
Hope you've had a good day yr right, your in one camp and i'm firmly in the other as far as LOP goes, nothing too serious though. |
What I don’t understand is why you trolls think that your pretence is not obvious. If you are able to comprehend documents like the Lycoming one at the link in yr right’s post, you are able to comprehend other documents with big words.
From the Lycoming document at the link in yr right’s post: Lycoming recommends cruise operation at peak EGT or TIT, which is the point where the best economy range starts. … Continuous operation is recommended at 25 degrees F or more below peak EGT only on the rich side of peak. Given that you apparently put implicit faith in any document published by manufacturers (despite those documents being produced primarily for marketing and a*s-covering purposes), which one of the above recommendation do you support? They are both arrant nonsense to me, but you real experts will know which is the better way to protect the clys… Standing by to be underwhelmed by the usual dullard impressions. := |
Once again you shun what's in front of you. Now are you in a wheel chair simple question yes or no
Cheers. |
Of course I'm not in a wheelchair, any more than you have a learning difficulty.
The difference between us is that, on matters technical, you are being deliberately deceptive under the guise of being a dullard. Troll := |
You are a low life sack of ****. And yes I am dyslexic. Any one that says they in a wheel chair has some sort of mental illness and those of you that knew he was are just as bad.
Me a troll no sir you are the troll. A gutless prick is what you are. Cheers |
Settle down yr right...settle!
Are you by any chance in the Ag Industry or the Survey Industry? Also going back to one of your other posts, where in Australia would you pre heat the oil and the engine before first start of the day? |
You are a low life sack of ****. And yes I am dyslexic. Any one that says they in a wheel chair has some sort of mental illness and those of you that knew he was are just as bad. Me a troll no sir you are the troll. A gutless prick is what you are. On matters technical, I’m not being deliberately deceptive. I have no reason to be: I am not trying to sell anything to anyone. I’m motivated only by a strong sense of mortality while flying behind a single piston engine. You, on the hand, are being deliberately deceptive on matters technical. Creampuff (Defence Force Service Medal With First Clasp; Australian Service Medal (SE Asia); Australian Defence Medal) BTW: It’s a very serious offence to falsely claim military awards, so I’ve just committed a very serious offence if my claim is false. You being big and brave and me being a gutless pr*ck, I assume you’ll take this up with the authorities. I won’t be holding my breath. Troll. := |
the fuel in the wings at altitude was becoming super-cooled, cold-soaked to very low temps. No one routinely had flown that high before. Since they were pressurized, and rapid depressurization was not a problem for passengers, the pilots were descending rapidly from altitude to land and, guess what they did next? They followed the POH's recommendations to go full rich in the pattern before landing. This shoved a large amount of very COLD fuel onto the intake walls of the warm cylinder. This resulted in cracks forming--in the INTAKE area, NOT in the cylinders. In any case, this required cylinder replacement. Have you worked out how little energy it takes to warm the fuel compared to the energy being routinely generated and removed from the engine via normal cooling? What temperature did the fuel get down to in the tanks? Lets assume -20F as a suitable definition for super cooled, and 40F as a "normal" fuel temperature. It takes more than 200x as much energy to vaporise the fuel as to raise the temperature 1 degree F. Fuel at -20F will only take about 15% more energy to vaporise than fuel at 40F and therefore provide 15% more fuel cooling (making some assumptions about boiling point). But fuel cooling would be a tiny proportion of the total energy. The energy to raise gasoline from -20F to 40F is about 30BTU/lb. If gasoline provides 19000 BTU/lb, and about 12% of that energy is removed through the fins, then supercooled fuel might be able to account for about 1% of cooling. If a lean mixture fixes the problem then it is the difference between a rich and lean mixture that is important. Lets say a rich mixture is about 30% more fuel, so the cylinder cracking is from increasing the cooling by 1/3 of one percent? Even worse, this is assuming cruise fuel flows. If you reduce the power setting for descent, you reduce the fuel flow and the fuel cooling even more. However, cooling via the fins is controlled by temperature, so until the engine cools down air cooling will be providing an even larger proportion of cooling. Supercooled fuel doesn't seem to be a plausible cause of cracking - although I am happy to have any errors in my calculations pointed out. reducing power 1" per minute or some such insanity and starting their descents more than 100 miles out. It did nothing to address the problem where the cylinder was concerned since there was no problem with the cylinder in the first place, but did allow the fuel to warm up a bit before it was thrown agains the intake walls. My flame suit is on in preparation to receive incoming from those with no data. 1) what was the measured temperature of the supercooled fuel and 2) how much it warmer it gets when you start your descent 100 miles out, vs. the actual descents they were doing. |
By the way. You don't have data. You have observations. There is a large difference. You cannot use any of what you are saying in a court of law if anything goes wrong. Data is provided by manufactures that in our case MUST be used. Not something you have found in the back shed. You will be legally liable if someone dose a course that as you have said is not approved. God help us if someone hurts them selfs by a miss calculation and has an accident and they not used the correct data but what you have said. The insurance for a start will be null and void.
You shown nothing just said we have it all Why did I say rotating valve seat and cabin px because it shows what little knowlege you know in the real world. I even gave you all the engine but still have to ask. And why cabin px. Because if you don't operate the aircraft in the way the manufacture has designed it you will break it. Px in the cabin supports the airframe in flight. A Saab 340 for example has chemically milled skin that on the ground you can nearly push your finger though. But in flight is as solid as a rock. You had a go at me for saying about the lock wire. But you never said anything about the orginal post. You gone out off your way to discredit me as much as you can to be called a troll because I don't agree with you and as has been shown I been right all along and you have not had to pay for it. I was called dangerous how low was that all I've said is you must follow was is in the poh once again this was to try and discredit me. The information I have give is factual for years on the floor real life. You also given zero credit to what the manufactures have done in the world of reliability. You have stated that if you run lop your engine will last to o/h. Guess what if you run it to the book you will as well. Now as I recall hazeltons ran there tsio 540 to 3500 hours on rpt with a cly change mid life ie top o/h why cause the bottom end was not a cause of any problems but the valves where and guess what they never ran lop either. Jaba has also said that his wife would not allow anyone in her org to run outside the poh. So you have to ask yourself why would he like you to run it. Because he is making $$ from you. Oh you will safe an engine o/h in fuel cost that is each time you put that money in the bank. But you won't. Then you have to fit a trend monitor muti cly now you have to buy it fit it maintain it for the life of it in your plane. You would save more fuel just by preheating your engine before flight. It's a shame that this post has had to turn out like the last one hijacked. Still no data on why the other cly have failed though I case anyone hasn't noticed. Cheers |
Px in the cabin supports the airframe in flight. A Saab 340 for example has chemically milled skin that on the ground you can nearly push your finger though. But in flight is as solid as a rock. |
The skins between the frames a chemically milled. Check it out. It is near on freighting how thin they are. Yes you can fly it un px as any aircraft but then there are limitations on that.
Cheers |
I have been involved with the type in the past, there are no limitations for de-pressurised flight, except those for oxygen limitations for pax and crew. You can even operate them with passengers de-pressurised under the MEL.
The centre fuselage is constructed in four parts. The skin is aluminium, bonded to the frames and other parts. These are then riveted together. There is no magic potion in the skin. Kevlar composites are used for flight control surfaces, fillets and some other bits. |
So anyway
andrewr has raised some important technical questions. I confess to also being interested to know how fuel that's been pumped through the heat-soaked EDP and subsequent fuel system components ends up being 'super cooled' at the cylinder. Still, my understanding is that the 777 that impacted short of London HR had issues with fuel and temperature. (But my understanding may be inaccurate.) |
Waste of Bandwidth
Don't waste your bandwidth on yr wrong, everything he says is total dribble
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777 for a start uses jeta and water is held in suspension that is why you use prist. And was pre Edp. Fuel at the nozzle is post Edp and for a start when you compress something you get a heat rise plus the transfer of heat from the engine via the base of the pump. But as the fuel exits the the nozzle heat is instantly taken from the air and fuel vapourizes and cools the intake charge in the same way a aircon works. Fuel dose not enter the chamber in liquid form.
Ocky I forgotten more than you no. Cheers |
Exactly! :ok:
PS: Troll! |
He was once quoted as saying in the test cell, "That's the first time I've ever touched the mixture control, we usually just leave it full rich, here." He's made some stupid misstatements in public, and we've sent him data to demonstrate the "difference from reality." He never responded, and like "yr right", I don't think he ever read it, either. It's called a "closed mind." He is gone now, and I think Lycoming has withdrawn that ghastly document, as I cannot find it there. It's only left on a few oddball websites, now. John Deakin jdeakin // at // advancedpilot.com |
Supercooled
What about all those aircraft in WW2 flying for hours in the flight levels? Pretty sure their fuel would have been supercool, wouldn't have this issue come up well before cessna made a turbocharged twin?
By this reasoning shock cooling due fuel would have cracked many heads as I'd imagine a P-47 or equivalent escort aircraft would go from high altitude cruise to combat down to low levels, mixture control pushed into auto-rich. |
What about all those aircraft in WW2 flying for hours in the flight levels? Pretty sure their fuel would have been supercool, wouldn't have this issue come up well before cessna made a turbocharged twin? By this reasoning shock cooling due fuel would have cracked many heads as I'd imagine a P-47 or equivalent escort aircraft would go from high altitude cruise to combat down to low levels, mixture control pushed into auto-rich. 1) The fuel in those engines entered the air charge at the blower inlet and had a considerable distance to travel and heat up before getting to the combustion chambers. Walter is talking about the Cessna system where raw fuel gets sprayed directly on the cylinder, inside the inlet port, and the sudden change in temperature caused by the increased flow of very cold fuel. 2) "Auto-Rich" and "Auto-Lean" (big radials) were both RICH MIXTURES, that is, on the RICH side of peak, and therefore the change in cooling would not be quite as much. (Except for the B-24, which had the mixtures set for LOP in "Auto Lean." That's the reason for their astonishing range, compared to the other aircraft.) (I'd like to think the ghost of that man who set up the B-24 carburetors that way is hovering up the rafters of our classroom, smiling in approval. :D) John Deakin jdeakin // at // advancedpilot.com |
Fuel goes though a stainless steel line of a controlled length across the top of hot engine it less than 1/8" inside dia how hot is the fuel going to be. Answer is sfa,
I never ever heard of this before with exception to Jets using jet A |
And to dismiss the lyc document wtf it would have gone past how many sets of eyes and lawyers desks to get published , Give us a break you also said nothing about the tcm doc btw
Or more likely doesn't suit your model so you dismiss it like anything or anyone that doesn't agree with what you said, maybe next you mate is a famous actor and you belong to some cult that says it is a church |
"yr right" said:
Fuel goes though a stainless steel line of a controlled length across the top of hot engine it less than 1/8" inside dia how hot is the fuel going to be. Answer is sfa, I never ever heard of this before with exception to Jets using jet A I don't understand your abbreviation "sfa." The fact that you, or I, or anyone, or no one has ever heard of something before isn't relevant. Some, even today believe the earth is flat, that no man ever walked on the moon and that Lycoming and CMI POH's are holy writ, divinely inspired, engraved in stone, straight from Mt Sinai - or even more authoritative, CASA. I consider them all fools, but that's just my opinion. John Deakin jdeakin // at // advancedpilot.com |
NOte that the Lycoming graph is not real data, but "idealized" traces. The Experts are Everywhere doc was NOT reviewed by a cadre of eyes but only Rick Moffett who was the lawyer who wrote it… It has become a source of major embarrassment to Lycoming due to its inaccuracies and they've removed it from their website. That took a while to accomplish!
As for the cold fuel hitting the hot metal, does anyone think that's a good idea? At least we have an explanation for the phenomenon. The observable fact is that the cracks were in the intake ports, not in the cylinders. So, if that's the case, how does rapidly cooling the cylinder with air, form the outside, cause cracks INSIDE the intake port? There are none so blind as those who will not see and none so ignorant as those who will not think. I offered the information. Do with it, think about it, or not, as you please. |
John Deakin, SFA is an Australianism meaning 'Sweet f##k All'.
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"yr right" said:
And to dismiss the lyc document wtf it would have gone past how many sets of eyes and lawyers desks to get published , Give us a break you also said nothing about the tcm doc btw Both CMI ("TCM" is several years out of date) and Lycoming have built their engines pretty much in isolation for decades. If a cylinder fails, their first step is to try and deny any responsibility, either warranty or otherwise. Either way, they grab a new cylinder off the line, ship it out, and melt the old one down. No checking, no "What happened to this cylinder." Into shipping, onto the junk pile, off to the ovens to recover the metal. I have my doubts, but I've seen the pile. Out of the box, and onto the pile. Out of the box, and onto the pile. ZERO interest in it. Hardly the attitude of "Let's figure out what happened to it, and make it better." They very proudly show the pile off, saying, "Look, we don't re-use any of this, it all get melted down!" Until very recently, no one at either factory was qualified to FLY any of their engines, and the very idea of doing that appalled them, repelled them. Until very recently, NO ONE at either factory had ever seen an engine monitor, much less used one. Bill Ross, the honcho at CMI has taken our course, and liked it so well he subsequently sent four more CMI employees. All have had their eyes opened, but when they go back, they run into the same bilzzard of misinformation and little gets done. That was last year, and there HAS been some progress. Not enough, but some. Put yourself in CMI's shoes. They have produced what, a thousand different models of engines, with a manual for each? As they become dimly aware that their manuals have errors in them, only the most egregious errors get revised, because they simply don't have the manpower. The manuals you're looking at are 50 years old! I say that because they take the old language from the old manuals, and blend it in with the text that goes with the new, often badly, same old text, year after year, decade after decade. I refer to the "How to operate," and not the LIMITATIONS, those are pretty good. NO MENTION of MODERN engine monitors! We've had 'em for 30 years and more, and neither of the engine factories even mention them, much less tell you what to do with them! THEY DO NOT KNOW. "Not invented here" and "We've done fine without 'em for 100 years." Not their job. Their job is to turn out engines that pass the FAA required 150 hours on the test stand at full power, near the CHT redline. Then ship 'em out. John Deakin jdeakin // at // advancedpilot.com |
John Deakin, SFA is an Australianism meaning 'Sweet f##k All'. It is , of course, also taken to mean the same as the convicts translated it.:} |
Now if the airfraft is to be flying above an altitude that is going to get into this so called super cooled fuel range then it's going to be turbo charge. Now also the heat is transferred now remember that the nozzle is brass and the cly head temp will be around 300 deg or so and the upper deck line is pumping air into the nozzle ( pre intercooler) and remember why we use inter coolers and remember what happens when you compess a gas and it already picked up heat energy from the Edp as it passes that then the diverter valve you still going to say that the fuel is going to be super cooled.
Now we still don't know why these after market heads are failing. Cheers |
Yeah convicts ha ha how dumb where them dills sending us out here. Was 20 deg C hers yesterday morning and I was looking for a jumper.
Pmsl Cheers |
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