+1 for Creampuff

Creampuff is saying the situation is confused, and I agree, but I'm not sure whether he is endorsing a specific answer.

You can't pick a frequency based on the number of aircraft, so whatever you choose has to work if you are the only aircraft flying into your private strip, or if you have multiple aircraft flying in for a BBQ and spot landing competition.

well the only real reason you would be discouraged from using the area frequency is the massive rebroadcasting done by air services in an effort to reduce staff.

this is an error caused by the "system", it is not error caused by pilots.

I think I’ll leave this one to CASA to ‘fix’…

For my part, here’s what I’d do if wasn’t a wheelchair-bound geek from Hicksville USA.

On taxiing at my property at Sandlewood Park I’d be monitoring the Area frequency and Mildura CTAF. I’d transmit this on the Area frequency: “All stations, alpha bravo Charlie, a VFR Cessna 192, is taxiing at Sandlewood Park, one seven miles to the West of Mildura, for Menindee to the North East, niner thousand fife hundred.”

Any broadcast on 126.7 would seem to me to be a waste of breath and electromagnetic radiation.

If you're the owner of a strip 17 miles from a busy airport, reasonably aligned with the runway centreline, you would be daft to designate any other frequency other than the CTAF of the nearby busy airport as your own CTAF.

Just use the same frequency as MIA CTAF and the problem goes away.

Yet another variation: Only the MIA CTAF!

One key problem, Las: I don’t get to ‘designate’ anything.

This discussion is about (or at least was about) what frequency the rules require me to use at a strip that’s not in ERSA nor on any chart. As far as I can tell, there are only 2 choices in the circumstances I described: 126.7 or the Area frequency. The CAAP Note says Area and the AIP says 126.7.

I don’t know to what “problem” you refer when you say “the problem” goes away if I use the same frequency as MIA CTAF. Don’t I create other problems if I use the MIA CTAF when I’m 17 miles away and tracking away from MIA? What about the people monitoring the Area frequency?

Bottom line for me in the hypothetical: If I have one radio, I’m broadcasting on Area. If I have two radios, I’m broadcasting on Area and monitoring the MIA CTAF.

No doubt the regulatory reform program will clear all this up by 2003. :ok:

You're 100 years out, Puff. By then, all you bug-smashers will have ADSB out and radio calls will be a thing of the past!! :} :} :ok:

If you are overflying Joe's paddock airstrip on the way into Mildura and 17 miles out without it marked on the charts or listed in ERSA, how the heck would you know it was there unless you happened to see it as you went over, and how would you know where Joe's place was if someone else gave a "10 miles inbound Joe's paddock" call?

Joe's paddock isn't a CTAF and I'll be on the Area.

Kaz

That's why I came to the same conclusion.

And it appears that whoever drafted the 'Note' in the CAAP agrees.

All Australia needs to do now is change the advisory material to match the rules, or change the rules to match the advisory material. Unfortunately, that's waaaay beyond the means of mortal mankind. :confused:

What's the difference between landing in Joe's paddock, and flying an orbit around his house at 1000' AGL?

Would you announce the latter on area?

Yes of course.

The only people who would benefit from the broadcast will be monitoring the Area frequency.

There are many, many similar VFR operations happening all the time. I'm pretty sure that the current expectation is that VFR aircraft will not broadcast every detail of their operations on area, and I suspect they would be unwelcome if they did.

We've got to get back to who were protecting here.

I'm sure a lot of VFR bugsmashers would like not having to talk to anyone.

Captain Figjam and his pax though need to know that the VFR may be in the way, hence if a place is busy enough for it's own CTAF then anybody in the vicinity (did I hear someone say 15nm/5000ft MBZ??) needs to be on that freq. If they are somewhere else, then Capt Figjam doesn't need or want to know (nor do ATC).

If the VFR is going into Capt Figjam's territory (did someone mention above 5000ft outside 15nm?) then they need to talk/announce on... the Area freq.

So I can see a lot of sense in having, in effect, a huge broadcast area at lowish level on 126.7 (unless of course a discrete CTAF is warranted), as is currently effectively the case. All the low-level smashers on it and only pertinent broadcasts on the Area freq above it.

As for Creampuff's scenario, there will always be unique situations which might not fit the mould. In that case, it's up to the farmer to know the local area and make intelligent calls.

Bloggsie, confronting as it may be, it’s not just about you and your pax, and it’s not your territory. ;) There are lots of other tax-paying citizens flying around who don’t want to listen to every 126.7 transmission within 100 miles, and who will be just as dead as you and your pax if they have a mid-air with you. You might be surprised at how many of them make operational decisions based on what the biggies broadcast about their intentions on Area.

No andrewr, there are not ‘many, many similar VFR operations happening all the time’ at strips that are neither in ERSA nor marked on any chart. Most of them are happening at strips that are at least marked on charts, in the vicinity of which strips the frequency is, therefore, 126.7, unless some other frequency is specified as the CTAF.

There is no requirement in the rules to broadcast ‘orbiting Joe’s house at one thousand feet’, just as there is no requirement to report inbound and overflying Joe’s house at one thousand feet, if Joe’s house isn’t next to a strip marked on a chart or in ERSA. But if I thought a broadcast of those facts might benefit anyone potentially in the vicinity, I’d be broadcasting on Area.

This was in relation to my question: would you announce flying an orbit around Joe's house at 1000 AGL on area, which you replied "Yes, of course".

There are many VFR operations flying around at essentially random routes, maybe making an orbit of a the occasional house, interesting hill or lake etc. They do not tend to broadcast anything on area.

So the question is: what is different about landing in a paddock that requires a broadcast on area, while circling around a house, hill, lake or other interesting feature does not?

My answer is that there may be multiple aircraft operating to the same paddock e.g. Joe has a BBQ or spot landing competition with a few mates, in which case you want to coordinate between the aircraft flying to the same place. This is what the 126.7 frequency is provided for - to coordinate between aircraft flying in to a location where a discrete CTAF is not provided.

Nobody wants Joe's spot landing competition on area.

AIP appears to support this interpretation - although as pointed out, the CAAP has a different interpretation.

You are correct: I should have finished the sentence. :ouch:

Yes of course I would broadcast on Area if I thought anyone would benefit from knowing that I’m orbiting Joe’s house. A broadcast on any other frequency is, for the reason explained by Kaz, pointless.

The conundrum with the BBQ or spot landing competition at Joe’s paddock example is this: Unless Joe’s paddock is on charts, in ERSA or the subject of a NOTAM, aircraft in the vicinity will be monitoring Area and won’t know about activities that may be relevant to their safety and operational decision-making. If lots of aircraft are converging on, operating at and departing from a spot on a map, others in the area have an interest in knowing about it.

AIP ENR 1.1 paras 44.1 and 44.2 say:[Underlining in the AIP. Bolding added]

An alternative is as suggested by Bloggsie: Make the Area frequency 126.7 everywhere that’s both outside C/D/E and below e.g. 5,000 AMSL.

But I don’t make the rules.

You should, Creampuff, you've got a good grip on this.

AIP ENR1.1 44 refers to Climb and Cruise procedures. If you are on climb or in cruise, I agree with you, but not if you are operating at an aerodrome.

AIP ENR 1.4 para 3.2 refers to the CTAF and procedures at non towered aerodromes.

Para 3.2.1: The CTAF is the frequency on which pilots operating at a non-towered aerodrome should make positional radio broadcasts. If a discrete frequency is not listed use Multicom 126.7MHZ.

Para 3.2.7: ENR 1.1 paras 21.1 lists the broadcasts for operations at non-towered aerodromes. Sections 40., 43. and 47. [Not section 44.] detail the communication requirements for operations at non-towered aerodromes.
Where a discrete CTAF is prescribed, these frequencies are shown in ERSA and ERC Low charts. Where no specific frequency is prescribed the default CTAF is 126.7MHZ.

The question then is: Is Joe's paddock an aerodrome? There is a definition of an aerodrome in AIP: A defined area of land or water ... intended to be used either wholly or in part for the arrival, departure and movement of aircraft.

It appears to me that if you mow or mark a strip, you have defined an area of land intended for the arrival, departure etc. of aircraft.

If you tell your friends to land in the paddock behind the house, you have probably defined an area of land intended for the arrival, departure etc. of aircraft.

If you land in a random paddock to take a leak, it is probably not a defined area intended for the arrival and departure of aircraft.

The rationale as I understand it is that 2 aircraft, one landing at an unmarked strip and one in cruise don't have a significantly greater risk of collision than 2 aircraft in cruise.

The increased risk of collision comes when you have 2 aircraft going to the same place, i.e.both going to the same unmarked strip. The CTAF is designed to allow those aircraft to communicate - not for aircraft operating at a strip to communicate with aircraft in cruise, where the risk is very remote.

I agree, Andrew. Get circuit traffic at any landing point onto the CTAF and if no CTAF, the Multicom. If/when they depart (to above 5000ft ;)), then call "departed" on Area for my/IFR/higher-altitude VFR's benefit.

Are you saying I’m not allowed to cruise at 500’ or 1000’ AGL over the millions of square kilometres of farmer Joe’s and Josephine’s paddocks out there?

You and your spot landing competition mates might decide famer Joe’s paddock is an aerodrome and use 126.7, but nobody else knows about you. Bloggsie up in the thin air may not want to know about you, but mere mortals closer to the ground do.

What’s to stop someone cruising through your ‘circuit area’ at 500’ or 1000’?

There are other options to deal with these issues, which options have worked perfectly well for decades: NOTAM farmer Joe’s paddock for the duration of the spot landing competition, or get it marked on the charts. Fireworks display organisers and kite flyers seem to be able to manage it without too much difficulty. :ok: