PPRuNe Forums

PPRuNe Forums (https://www.pprune.org/)
-   The Pacific: General Aviation & Questions (https://www.pprune.org/pacific-general-aviation-questions-91/)
-   -   The Empire Strikes Back! on Colour Defective Pilots (https://www.pprune.org/pacific-general-aviation-questions/527897-empire-strikes-back-colour-defective-pilots.html)

Bill Smith 23rd Jul 2016 12:47

Common Sense prevailing??
 
https://www.caa.govt.nz/medical/colour_vision_report.html

"There is no strong link between the office-based examination of CVD and real world realities. Under the proposed GD, the assessment of interferes with or likely to interfere with is ascertained from office-based assessments only. This assessment cannot be made from office-based tests only and can only be determined by an in-flight practical test. While both aviation medicine and flight operations specialists will need to be involved in the development of protocols for in-flight testing, only a flight examiner or flight instructor will be in a position to assess the ability of a pilot with a CVD condition to operate an aircraft safely. Thus the effect that a CVD condition will have on the ability of a pilot to safely exercise the privileges of a licence is a flight operations issue, not a medical issue."

Allan L 23rd Jul 2016 22:32

Good news - however the report is just one part of the regulatory process:


The report will be provided to the CAA Principal Medical Officer who will be offered the opportunity to review it and provide advice to the Director on its content. Given existing commitments, it is likely that no decisions will be made regarding the report or the associated proposed General Direction until late November 2016.
The Recommendation at paras 134 and 135 seem quite reasonable (note that the CAD test remains, but with a further option, the flight test.)

Lead Balloon 23rd Jul 2016 22:38

Let's wait to see what the NZCAA PMO says about the report, before there's too much rejoicing. As we know, this is by no means the first independent panel to reach these kinds of conclusions, based on an objective assessment of the evidence and risks.

Trifles like objective evidence and objective risk do not divert those who make their living out of the busy work of mining the rich vein of fear that can be created by perceived risks to aviation safety. These kinds of people know that the only reason pilots with CVD can perform safety-critical aviation activities in the real world as efficiently as pilots without CVD is through practise and experience. And that's cheating. Pilots with CVD should be able to perform real world tasks that require the identification of the meaning of colours as effectively as pilots without CVD, without practice. That's because having concluded that pilots with CVD are an unacceptable risk, evidence to the contrary must be ignored.

brissypilot 23rd Jul 2016 23:13

It's worth noting that although this was an 'independent' panel, there were significant concerns raised at the outset about the actual independence of the panel, which consisted of:
  • CAA General Manager General Aviation (Panel Chair)
  • External senior industry Flight Examiner with experience in airline and general aviation operations
  • External Medical Examiner
  • External optometry and vision science specialist with experience in colour vision matters
  • CAA Chief Legal Counsel
The external optometry expert holds the only CAD test which is currently available in NZ, which was of significance because the proposed GD recommended the introduction of this test into the NZ system.

Under the terms of reference, the role of the panel was to reach a consensus and provide the CAA Director with recommendations on the appropriateness or otherwise of the proposed directions.

Despite the obvious concerns about perceived bias from the panel, they still managed to come up with a consensus which thoroughly rejected the current NZ CVD restrictions (of which CASA has been attempting to re-align with) and recommended practical flight testing be introduced.
In that respect, they are to be congratulated on taking an objective look at the available evidence.

The panel's comments about the NZ PMO Dr Dougal Watson are also worth mentioning:


15. Central to the proposed GD is the concept of aeromedical significance. Civil Aviation Rule (CAR) Part 67 defines aeromedical significance as: a medical condition is of aeromedical significance if, having regard to any relevant general direction, it interferes or is likely to interfere with the safe exercise of the privileges or the safe performance of the duties to which the relevant medical certificate relates. While there is no issue with aeromedical significance being used as a standard, it would appear that there is little in the way of guidance for determining what exactly, in terms of a flight operation, is significant in relation to CVD. In answer to a question regarding the reasoning behind the flight restrictions for a pilot who is CVD, the PMO answered that the “restrictions are historical”. This is a key issue for the Panel’s deliberations particularly in relation to the risk posed by a pilot with CVD, the different operational environments pilots operate in, and who should be determining restrictions to which a pilot is to operate.

16. The PMO also commented that he thought practical flight tests are unreliable. In the Panel’s opinion a flight examination has the same status as a medical examination in ensuring that a pilot is not a threat to the public and renewing their privilege to fly.
Given Dr Watson's past unethical and fraudulent presentations on the topic of CVD, the CAA Director has a fairly clear choice to make over the next few months...

Lead Balloon 3rd Aug 2016 22:01

To me, the most appalling aspect of Mr Watson's presentation is not the intellectual dishonesty. Those who make their living out of mining the rich vein of busy work generated by leveraging the fear that can be created by the mystique of aviation are rarely troubled by an objective analysis of the evidence and the objective and comparative risks.

And it's not the patent prejudice. I'm guessing that those who don't like or fail to empathise with people of a particular race or sexual preference or other characteristic don't comprehend the irrationality of their position. If they did, they probably wouldn't think that way in the first place.

To me, the most appalling aspect is that the content is just plain infantile. It looks to me like a teenage high school boy's attempt to be 'funny'. And the author is, apparently, in a position in which he makes decisions that affect, profoundly, the lives of adult citizens. That's what appals me most.

ihavelotsofquestions 19th Sep 2016 01:11

Hi everyone,

Sorry if this has been asked before but have searched through the thread and could nt find an anwer. Although Im sure it will be a common scenario.

I just conducted my Class 1 medical renewal yesterday. I am a Colour Deficient ATPL holder. I had my restrictions removed in my original Class 1 medical when I did the signal gun test 10 years ago.

With the new medical system in place, I was asked to do the ishihara test. -

Have any of you completed your Class 1 renewal and had any issues of restrictions placed back on your licence? or has your medical been renewed as always?

Thanks for any help.

Regards:)

Lead Balloon 19th Sep 2016 05:59

The medical term for your condition is: You're stuffed.

Presumably you had to do the signal gun test because you failed the Ishihara and Farnsworth lantern tests. The signal gun test has been replaced by the CAD test, which merely confirms what is already known. You have CVD.

That's why you've left a trail of death and destruction in your wake since gaining your ATPL.

ihavelotsofquestions 19th Sep 2016 07:43

Ummm.

I guess what I am asking is, Are they leaving pilots who are in the system alone. (surely someone here has been through the new system with this condition who is flying commercially)

Being that I and others hold unrestricted medicals. I have been flying commercially for years and this is my livelihood etc?

Thanks.

Lead Balloon 19th Sep 2016 09:08

I suggest you read the title of this thread then contact the CVDPA.

Men in Black 20th Sep 2016 01:09


Originally Posted by ihavelotsofquestions (Post 9512433)
Ummm.

I guess what I am asking is, Are they leaving pilots who are in the system alone. (surely someone here has been through the new system with this condition who is flying commercially)

Being that I and others hold unrestricted medicals. I have been flying commercially for years and this is my livelihood etc?

Thanks.

check out the CVDPA MEMBERS area for further info on this topic. you will not have any issues with your class 1 as you have passed the light gun test.

Lead Balloon 20th Sep 2016 10:15

I'm a little suspicious of recent blow-ins who claim to know about the regulatory treatment of CVD but no knowledge of recent regulatory developments.

Men in Black: Why would ihavealotofquestions have been "asked to do the Ishihara test" if "pass[ing] the light gun test" was sufficient to meet the Class 1 standard?

Men in Black 21st Sep 2016 01:59


Originally Posted by Lead Balloon (Post 9513786)
I'm a little suspicious of recent blow-ins who claim to know about the regulatory treatment of CVD but no knowledge of recent regulatory developments.

Men in Black: Why would ihavealotofquestions have been "asked to do the Ishihara test" if "pass[ing] the light gun test" was sufficient to meet the Class 1 standard?


The Ishihara test is now just part of the new online medical debacle! All renewals now require this for whatever reason.
As Ihavelotsofquestions holds an unrestricted ATPL and passed the 3rd stage testing he or she is not required to do further testing. He or she demonstrated the required standard required at that period for the ATPL.

Ihavelotsofquestions, please let us know when you receive your renewal.

I am well aware of the recent changes and discrimination placed on new applicants for class one medicals.

M.I.B

log0008 21st Sep 2016 07:54

CASA want to have your Ishihara Score in the new system. If you have had your restrictions lifted they will remain so

Lead Balloon 21st Sep 2016 10:24

Gosh.

So CASA has quietly retreated from culling existing Class 1 holders with CVD, and is now just picking off the new applicants?

No announcement from the CVDPA that CASA is not going to impose any conditions on existing Class 1 holders with CVD?

I'm not buying it.

Soup Nazi 23rd Sep 2016 23:33

What version of the Ishihara plates are they using?

SN

nomorecatering 24th Sep 2016 00:27

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6QuYiY1EJg

Glasses that fix 80% of CVD people.

Are they are acceptable to CASA.

Soup Nazi 24th Sep 2016 21:52

nomorecatering
No, unfortunately not. Lenses that correct a colour defect for red/ greed modify the perception for other colours. Thats the excuse and they're sticking to it. Having said that the argument doesn't stack up really when you consider that the wearing of corrective lenses for distance or reading comes at the expense of near vision or peripheral vision.

After nearly 30 years of flying I haven't once had reason to work out which way an aircraft is heading by reference to its wing lights. Its all about the PAPI, if there was no such beast we would be further down the track. It would be an interesting stat to find out how many PAPI related incidents have occurred worldwide and break them down into two groups, "colour normals" Vs "colour defectives".

We know the outcome of course they would say there are no colour defectives so therefore no colour defective stats. What we really need is funding for research into what that stat would look like if there were the same amount of colour defectives. At the end of the day it looks like the employers are taking the initiative of culling out the defectives and as such the future "difficult to see it is"!

SN

Aileron Roll 28th Sep 2016 21:33

I did my class 1 renewal two weeks back and had four fails with the colour charts....

I still have a copy of my Farnsworth Lantern test from 25 years ago which I forwarded to CASA with my online renewal.

CASA issued class 1 renewal a week later with no restrictions!

Aileron Roll 28th Sep 2016 21:34

Do I now have to complete the Ishihara tests with every renewal in the future??

Lead Balloon 3rd Oct 2016 07:27


I did my class 1 renewal two weeks back and had four fails with the colour charts....

I still have a copy of my Farnsworth Lantern test from 25 years ago which I forwarded to CASA with my online renewal.

CASA issued class 1 renewal a week later with no restrictions!
That explains a lot.

The recent return to the dark ages by AVMED impacts on the people who fails both the Ishihara and Farnsworth Lantern tests.

But you're OK, Aileron Roll, so whatever you do, don't join or donate to the CVDPA or agitate for AVMED reform. AVMED will never come after you to confirm that your 25 year old FL test is valid.


All times are GMT. The time now is 09:05.


Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.