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-   -   Ambo runway incusion (https://www.pprune.org/pacific-general-aviation-questions/527778-ambo-runway-incusion.html)

Flanker978 14th Nov 2013 10:00

Ambo runway incusion
 
Hi guys,
Working on a tail wheel endoresment today in a super decathlon. Located at a small regional flight school at a pretty quite ctaf. Was performing a low level curcuit on rwy 01. Was on downwind. An ambo King Air gave a taxi call, I responed with "late downwind, low level, rwy 01, touch and go"
Got an acknowlegemnt from him but nothing else. Had a look for him while i was on base, he was taxiing toward the rwy. I just assumed he'd hold short. Not so! As i was turning final he gave a rolling call for an intersection departure rwy 19! So there i was, rolling out on final to see a King Air starting his roll.
I gave a call reporting i WAS final but now going around rwy 01.
No acknowledgment from the ambo, just an airborne report.
He was using the callsign ambulance ####.
So was i supposed to give him priority. The wind was light but did favour rwy 01. Is this a runway incusion or should i have given him priority? If it was a life threthening situation shouldn't he have been using a Med callsign?
I believe he was in the wrong. If he was lining up on 01 i would have happily extened downwind for him.
What was really disappointing was the lack of appology, acknowledgement or even contrition. He just headed off to his next destination.

Flanker978 14th Nov 2013 19:29

For sure. I will always try to give priority to Ambos and RPT.
I didn't call base as I'd called late downwind, which he acknowledged. With only two aircraft operating, no need for unnecessary chatter. Nearby CTAFs sharing the same freq were busy enough. I was about to call final as he made his rolling call.

If he used the active runway I could have extended downwind and let him get away. The first call he gave regarding runways was that he was rolling 19, (while I was rolling out onto final for 01!)

I could have changed to x/wind for 19 from base if he had given a call to let me know his intentions.

Can someone clarify re call signs. Does Ambo 1234 change his callsign in certain situations depending on the urgency?

TwoFiftyBelowTen 14th Nov 2013 20:05

Ambo runway incusion
 
Medevac priority does not alter their callsign.
And the numbers identify the PIC. If you have the numbers you have the pilot. Their airmanship is usually top notch

Jabawocky 14th Nov 2013 20:42

Consider this......AND I have done it myself.

Is it at all possible doing the circuit you have accidentally broadcast 19, thus he used 19 and went to get out of your way.

I have done simply as a result of looking at the threshold numbers and they went in my eyes and out my mouth.

waren9 14th Nov 2013 20:56

ring the guy or his outfit. you both might learn something

morno 14th Nov 2013 21:05

Just curious Flanker, did you have a second radio that was tuned to the area frequency? If he was Medevac he would have reported it to ATC on contact with them. If I report Medevac to ATC on the area, I'll generally also report it in my CTAF taxi call as well, so that anyone who's not listening to the area frequency know's I'm in a bit of a hurry.

Sounds like there was possibly just some confusion about who's using what runway. Heck I've done it (can't say I've come head to head with anyone, but I've certainly backtracked a runway only to realise I reported backtracking 180 degree's the other way!).

Is it a runway incursion though? Not really, I don't think so. Perhaps if you were on final you could report it as being one.

morno

VH-XXX 14th Nov 2013 21:29


So there i was, rolling out on final to see a King Air starting his roll.
If I'm reading this correctly, you were on late final and he was heading towards you on his takeoff roll? If it's as simple as that, you might want to consider submitting an incident report as he should probably be doing the same thing.

megle2 14th Nov 2013 21:59

If he was "med one" that's equivalent to lights and sirens so we obviously all try to give a clear pathway otherwise it's just other traffic

The RFDS driver should report it and let the company SMS extract what safety benefits they can

As for the circuit guy give Rufus a call just to express your concern
As you were on a low level circuit, it makes it especially hard to see so cut some slack to the other pilot as maybe a portion of the error lays with you

andrewr 14th Nov 2013 22:17


I didn't call base as I'd called late downwind, which he acknowledged.
I would have thought turning base is probably the most standard call in a CTAF - if you make only one call, it would be that one.

Hearing a downwind call, but no base call, the pilot may have assumed you were extending downwind to let him get away. If you are entering the runway, aircraft on downwind that have not yet called base are typically not a factor. Although taking off in the opposite direction does make a conflict more likely if e.g. they turn base as you start the takeoff roll. He probably thought his rolling call would mitigate that.

It sounds like there were assumptions on both sides. It's a fact of life in a CTAF I think - sooner or later somebody does something that is not what somebody else assumed they would do. Or even makes a mistake. It seems like the important thing is that there was enough radio calls etc. that at least one of you knew where the other aircraft was at all times, and so there was no real danger of collision - as opposed to failing to give way?

ranmar850 14th Nov 2013 22:36

Assumption, the mother of many disasters. The word has been used a lot in this thread:hmm: When I was in flight training (dual), quiet regional airport, no overlapping chatter from other CTAF's, gave a call" VH-xxx, C172, entering downwind, runway 21, full stop". Gave a further call turning base, all very correct. Then had a reply from a C402 downwind same runway. I was focused on the approach, instructor advised me to proceed, , while looking out for the other aircraft. I had aimed for a touchdown on the first jet marker, which I duly made, only to have said 402 nearly give me a haircut :uhoh:as he went around over me.
He came into the flight school later, with his explanation being he had "assumed" I would land long and vacate the runway promptly for him to land. Given our relative speed differences, this was most unlikely to happen even if I had landed long, as he has "assumed" I would.
Some assumptions are safer to draw than others.

VH-XXX 14th Nov 2013 23:00

The only assumption you should be making in the circuit is that one day the other aircraft is not going to do what he/she says they are and that there might be an aircraft there that you don't know about.

poteroo 14th Nov 2013 23:28

Omissions by both pilots. If you are airborne and hear anyone taxy - give an 'update' call as to your position in cct and intentions. Especially if low level!If you are in the habit of starting up - rolling asap - and giving yr taxi call as you cross the holding pt line - then you're setting up for a conflict. Just give their base a friendly phone call - no point in blame and paperwork. happy days,

ForkTailedDrKiller 14th Nov 2013 23:57

Sh*t happens from time to time! Get over it and move on. :ok:

You saw him and dodged him - all good! Its the one you don't see that will kill you. :E

Dr :8

Flanker978 15th Nov 2013 01:07

Thanks for all the input.

Is it at all possible doing the circuit you have accidentally broadcast 19, thus
he used 19 and went to get out of your way.
Possible but I'd been in the circuit on 01 prior even to him arriving.


did you have a second radio that was tuned to the area frequency? If he was
Medevac he would have reported it to ATC on contact with them. If I report
Medevac to ATC on the area, I'll generally also report it in my CTAF taxi call
as well, so that anyone who's not listening to the area frequency know's I'm in
a bit of a hurry.
Yep had it tuned to centre. No word of Medivac.


As you were on a low level circuit, it makes it especially hard to see so cut some slack to the other pilot as maybe a portion of the error lays with you
Agree. I mainly posted here to work out protocol/courtesy. Call it threat and error management.



You saw him and dodged him - all good! Its the one you don't see that will kill
you. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/sr...ilies/evil.gif
I'm over it guys. Thanks again for the input. I plan on giving them a call. Will let you know how I go.

Frank Arouet 15th Nov 2013 01:19

If you are still peeved after sleeping on it for a night, get up the pilot or get over it. It's no good being dead and having the words, "but I was in the right" carved into the headstone. Same goes for trucks and red lights, their legal status is there for the guidance of fools who don't know how to handle them.

Ultralights 15th Nov 2013 01:25

Isnt the Base call the only Mandatory call?

manymak 15th Nov 2013 02:19

See & Avoid.... You did exactly that.

As it's been mentioned, generally speaking, the airmanship from the aeromed guys is generally above par. But he/she may have been on the final leg of a brutally long shift and had a lapse of judgement.

Flanker978 15th Nov 2013 05:54

Thanks for all the feed back guys.
I only really posted to get some opinions on if I had done the wrong thing.

There was certainly a potential conflict and I'd say a lack of airmanship from both of us.

I'm not really upset, was shaken at the time think I was in the wrong for not giving priority. Not planning on reporting anything.

I think I will call ambo nsw and have a chat.

As a low hour PPL and (maybe) future CPL I just want to improve my own skills and judgement.

PS: Frank,

their legal status is there for the guidance of fools who don't know how to
handle them
It usually takes people much longer than this too call me a fool! :ok:

I will report on after chatting to Ambo NSW.

Cheers

MakeItHappenCaptain 15th Nov 2013 06:50


Isn't the Base call the only Mandatory call?
The current rules (AIP ENR 1.1 Para 21, page 47 to be exact) actually don't even recommend ANY in circuit calls apart from the join. Was amended a few months back.

Minimum i would make to maintain an acceptable level of airmanship would be a turning base call with intentions (plus any others as necessary, but for some fcuked up reason you can still fly around AF after hours and still get "Turns Downwind...Turns Base...Turns Final from the largest school on the field's aircraft, regardless of whether there's one or four of them up there. Too much!:rolleyes:

KRviator 15th Nov 2013 08:19

I've gotta say I'm concerned at some of the comments here. "You missed him, he missed you, suck it up", "These things happen, leave it alone", you can surely tell the reason why "these things happen" going by these comments. :rolleyes::ugh:

Yes, **** happens. No argument there from me. Never will be, either. But to suggest essentially sweeping it under the rug is astounding. For me, if you start rolling on the reciprocal runway as I am turning, or established on, final I will report the incident.

Not because I want to see you keelhauled, but because the potential for my bugsmasher becoming a KingAir's hood ornament exists - and if it is a near-miss this time, what happens next time? Or the time after that? Sooner or later, "**** happens" will result in someone - possibly one of you - getting dead.

We have the means to highlight incidents like this quickly and effectively now - why not use them? Learn from them? Try and prevent them?


But he/she may have been on the final leg of a brutally long shift and had a lapse of judgement.
Not having a go, but here's an example. He's had a right prick of a shift. Lots of flying, lots of approaches, he's tired. Are the operators fatigue management policies sufficient? What controls are there in place for situations like this - or is the self-reporting method the only one? People are the worst judges of their own fatigue. Can the operator do something to assist in eliminating these tiring shifts? Not if they aren't aware of the incident, no, they can't.

If I stuff up, learn from my mistakes. They may just prevent you making them.

Frank Arouet 15th Nov 2013 08:55

Flanker;

The saying is generic and not aimed at you in particular. Apologies for any upset. Talking with the pilot or his employer is a good idea.

Treating the episode as an educational experience for both pilots usually gives you the moral high ground without undue abrasiveness toward anyone in particular.

tecman 15th Nov 2013 13:23

Flanker, I appreciate it's disconcerting. A similar thing happened to me a few weeks ago after I'd joined downwind for 23 (with broadcasts) only to have a Jabiru blast off from 05 as I was late downwind. (In this case the element of the ambo and the level of expected professionalism was, of course, not a factor). The Jab was RA Aus registered, but I don't know that I'd draw any conclusions from that. I believe that the pilot probably had a fault in his receiver, or had the transceiver volume turned down.

The saving grace was that he did at least give a taxi call (of a sort) but after that it was pretty poor - accepting that I was hard for him to see, he also missed other ground traffic taxying for 23 and taxyed onto the strip without pausing. With a bit different timing, he could have met me head-on on my final, or could have met a C152 on its take-off roll. Fortunately, there was enough look-out and awareness all round to avoid Mr McGoo as he blasted north. Being charitable, the fact that he didn't respond to calls on the CTAF frequency made it clear that he was most likely not receiving, or not listening.

In your case, with 2-way communication established and the aircraft details available, I think a polite follow-up would be appropriate. I'd have also done that but by the time we'd re-arranged the circuit traffic, including accommodating a few new joins, I have to admit that I'd forgotten the call-sign. While there are certainly worse things that can happen, I should have followed it up. If an enquiry meant the pilot in the future at least unmuted his squelch to check for audio volume on start-up (as I and many others do), the follow-up would have been worthwhile.

flyingfrenchman 16th Nov 2013 00:39

Hey Flanker,

I know you are done with this but I'll make a few points. The relative levels of experience or cpl vs ppl has nothing to do with right and wrong, what rules apply or the amount of leeway you get. If his flight had any form of priority he should communicate that to you. You fulfilled your requirements (more than minimum really) and had better situational awareness, I think a well done for potentially avoiding an accident is in order and if more ppls were as aware it would make many cpls happier!!

One more thing, this happens everywhere in all operations. Just recently a jet taxied out at a busy WA ctaf, we could see them as we were coming in, they did a ctaf taxi call, No call on center until they had backtracked and lined up (dodging cobt I imagine) then no other calls on ctaf. The only way we would separate was visually. This is not some small time jet operator either.

You just have to manage on the day, like you have, and if it's a close call talk to them or report it.

Cheers

Derfred 16th Nov 2013 03:44

Aren't you supposed to include the runway in your taxi call? Did the ambo do that? If so, which runway did he say he was taxiing for?

truthinbeer 16th Nov 2013 05:37

Some good discussion on this subject. Flanker, you missed each other and you have now had a flying lesson that money can't buy.

VFRSTAR 20th Nov 2013 09:27

Good job understanding what was going on, and situational awareness is, as you've found out, very important. However if this guy is an ambulance pilot then this isn't his first ball game. I don't think calling the company or reporting him will do anything productive. Surely he realized his mistake but said his departure call normally because he is a professional. If you decide to stay in GA for decades like he did you will certainly see this many times and in other variations. Communication is very important. There's no such thing as overcommunicating or asking questions or giving suggestions on a CTAF. However dobbing someone in because you were scared is not really a constructive solution in my opinion. You should have raised the question before turning base with the pilot in question, not on the internet.

tecman 20th Nov 2013 09:51

There's nothing here to suggest that the OP's attitude or manners are anything other than humility and politeness. Quite wrong in my view to reduce the situation he described to 'dobbing in'. He's received some constructive suggestions, which have hopefully helped him come to a view of how to handle the situation. My earlier post talks about a level of CTAF communication, which I agree is very important. By the same token, a CTAF frequency is no place to have a full-on discussion, if that's what's required.

Flanker978 20th Nov 2013 10:12

Hey Vfrstar,
Where were the questions from the guy in the king air who has spent so many years in GA?

Old Akro 20th Nov 2013 20:37


As i was turning final he gave a rolling call for an intersection departure rwy 19! So there i was, rolling out on final to see a King Air starting his roll.
Once the King Air is outside the gable markers for RWY 01 he's no longer on RWY 01. If it started rolling from the intersection of RWY 01 / 19 while you were in the turn to final (ie not established on final), then he was probably actually outside the limits of RWY 01 by the time you finished turning and were established final and therefore you were OK to land.

I may not have been good etiquette, but its not clear to me that it was actually against the rules.

VH-XXX 20th Nov 2013 22:00


Was performing a low level curcuit on rwy 01
I would suggest that this probably contributed to the situation occurring. We all have a picture in our mind of how long it will take an aircraft to complete its' circuit and then someone comes along and throws in a "low level" and does a circuit in half the usual time. The ambo pilot probably thought to himself that he had plenty of time up his sleeve. I see a lot doing these "low level" circuits, presumably at 500 ft. I would have thought you'd do a low level circuit if you cruise at 50 knots, not 100.


I'll never forget the ambo pilot at Latrobe Valley that pulled out onto runway 03 a total of 3 times after quickly evacuating as there was a string of low level ultralights doing touch and go's. Every time he pulled out someone would call final. Ambo finally said on radio "I'm just trying to do my bloody job here" and he was hounded for his comment. I felt sorry for him and the passenger in the rear; probably gave him a few extra grey hairs. Wally would remember this happening (although it wasn't Wally though from memory).

Wally Mk2 20th Nov 2013 22:08

'Flanker' I'm kinda sorry you came up against this situation but you handled it quite well. There could be a whole gambit of reasons as to why you found yourself in this conflicting situation some you/we shall never really know. Aeromed A/c have no priority as such other than good old fashioned airmanship being displayed & being courteous by those effected by the guys level of urgency:-)
In the many years I spent doing the same job I came up against many a private pilot & some RPT jockeys for that matter that where less than professional inc some who simply has no idea but you adapt to the situation at the time to make a safe outcome.Commercial pressure, not understanding the rules & regs & poor pilot etiquette all form that part of our industry that has holes in it, this is where a good pilot will make allowances so the holes in the Swiss cheese don't line up.
'VFRSTAR' I think yr wrong there this is not about 'dobbing' in someone that typical Aussie trait it's about education for ALL & in the circuit is not the place for any form of education. A few times over the years I've called the flying school of an offending pilot whom I came across that needed some level of further education & was happily willing to chat about it & make the guys life a little more safe, for all of us for that matter it was never about dobbing in anybody or retribution.
One day in WBL I got cut off by an Asian student on a solo nav & when I finally landed after I gave him right of way for safety reasons I walked over to him where it was obvious he had no idea what he had just done & had a chat in a friendly manor, not too sure he even knew what I was on about but it was more about two pilots educating each other, me included.
It's a bloody tuff gig at times Aeromed juggling many balls in the air at any one time, we all drop the ball sometimes as we are simply human:-)

'xxx' I don't recall that particular time but LTV was a 'hot spot' for such goings on, a difficult place to get airborne safely in a timely manor. The ref to a low level circuit should be irrelevant here as it could take the same time to do a circuit as during normal height/s it was more the use of an opposite direction rwy being selected/used by the Ambo guy/gal.

Wmk2

OpsNormal 21st Nov 2013 01:07

The opposite to Wally, I headed from multi crew RPT (of which I had many years in various roles and turboprop aircraft types) into the aeromed world in the recent past. To say that it was an eye-opener to begin with would be an understatement as I hadn't flown single pilot in the 6-7 years previous.

No, I was not the aeromed pilot in this instance but there is nothing inherently different about flying the aircraft single pilot (I'll keep my balls where they belong though Wally, although I do understand your analogy... :8 ), though I will say that they workload is different and comes at different times in either operation. Some will argue but the aeroplane does not know it only has one person flying it. Those calling for either pilot to be "educated", did you ever stop to think that they both may have over transmitted each other at exactly the same time and/or that the aeromed pilot may have been tx'ing on the Centre frequency while the OP was making his CTAF call? Any number of James Reason's holes may well have or did line-up on that day and is the OP absolutely sure to this day that the answer he/she thought they heard was from that aircraft?

Of recent times I have conducted a couple of Medevac status flights and all around me people could not have been more accommodating or obliging! A big thank-you to the 6-7 aircraft in the Wagga circuit a few weeks ago, who all worked together and made room for us to get out quickly off 05 off to Sydney and also to the Rex crew at Griffith last week who mentioned for us to taxi out in front of them for Sydney as well even though they were first to call on the CTAF and to the other holding point. They didn't have to do that and it is little things like that that mean sometimes precious minutes to our patients and medical staff in the back. The same thing applies when we get to Sydney and need a runway out of turn or sequence. I always ask ground to convey our thanks for the disruption to everyone else that our operation does sometimes cause.

None of us ever push it or force our way in front of anyone else but occasionally we might ask you if it is OK that we do something or other out of turn. We'll only ever ask you if it is OK, not deliberately go out of our way to get in yours. It is all about give and take.:ok:

Wally Mk2 21st Nov 2013 01:36

'OpsN' I believe it's about education for both pilots but that's just my take on it all.
You mentioned that perhaps the EMS guy missed a call/s on the CTAF whilst dealing with ATC, sure that's probably the reason here but I used to chat to ATC first b4 I moved off the ramp that way I could concentrate on the machines that could kill you the most, the ones in the circuit or on the CTAF, worked for me.
Most times other A/C where accommodating to the needs of us EMS guys/gals (Old JF @ MIA was the best...........RIP Jack & tnxs:ok:) but it wasn't always like that & neither did ATC sometimes trying to get their way & luckily there was only a few times in 10 yrs that I had to pull them back into line.

Wmk2

RENURPP 21st Nov 2013 10:48


I've gotta say I'm concerned at some of the comments here. "You missed him, he missed you, suck it up", "These things happen, leave it alone", you can surely tell the reason why "these things happen" going by these comments.

Yes, **** happens. No argument there from me. Never will be, either. But to suggest essentially sweeping it under the rug is astounding. For me, if you start rolling on the reciprocal runway as I am turning, or established on, final I will report the incident.

Not because I want to see you keelhauled, but because the potential for my bugsmasher becoming a KingAir's hood ornament exists - and if it is a near-miss this time, what happens next time? Or the time after that? Sooner or later, "**** happens" will result in someone - possibly one of you - getting dead.

We have the means to highlight incidents like this quickly and effectively now - why not use them? Learn from them? Try and prevent them?

Quote:
But he/she may have been on the final leg of a brutally long shift and had a lapse of judgement.
Not having a go, but here's an example. He's had a right prick of a shift. Lots of flying, lots of approaches, he's tired. Are the operators fatigue management policies sufficient? What controls are there in place for situations like this - or is the self-reporting method the only one? People are the worst judges of their own fatigue. Can the operator do something to assist in eliminating these tiring shifts? Not if they aren't aware of the incident, no, they can't.

If I stuff up, learn from my mistakes. They may just prevent you making them.
Here here!


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