Update from nt police
 

Search Continues for Missing Plane - Update | NTPFES

body of a female found

gg - i dont fly a 210, but assume its similar performance to what i do fly. assume then that Vlo is quite a bit less than cruise speed - which as you note would be exceeded in a down draft. question, do they teach you to get the gear out regardless of speed on the basis that its safer to damage the gear system than continue to get too much speed? a serious question and i dont really know what damage is done when getting the gear out above Vlo - even though i passed the cpl exam!

EFB appears to be a Fixed Gear 210 (strutless) 1967 model.

2 more bodies found.

looks like everyone is gone.

RIP Stuart, Karmi and the girls:sad:

EFB is an H. It is a retract but with gear doors.

Wan it depends on the model.
I usually get around the 140kias mark in cruise with a standard IO520.
Vlo is 139 and 160 in the later models.
Not much if anything required to get the gear out, unless you have a fair descent going

Cheers Mate and Family. Take care now will see you the other side.

GG never come to MKT for a beer. Seems you know Jack S.

There were 10 Aircraft in the group, all left Bullo within 1 hour of each other.

Never believe the media or PPRUNE for facts very few are on either.

AMPK is absolutely correct.

Gileraguy Every Cessna 210 ever built left the factory with retractable gear.

Wan The speed restrictions on deploying a C210 undercarriage are to protect the gear doors. If in dire straits put the gear down at any speed. It's cheaper to replace a door or two than the whole aircraft.

I understand you are grieving and offer my sincere apologies if I have offended you. However this subject will be discussed to the minute detail as always, and hopefully the younger sprogs will learn a thing or too.

So far the aircraft is where I said it would be, and more than likely got there how I said it got there.

The only other explanation is VFR into IMC. Both generally have the same result.

As for ten aircraft departing together, have you heard of risky shift? I'd suggest you read up on it. The pressure of having 9 other aircraft pressing on, can cause guys to go waaaay outside their comfort zone if they think everyone else is handling it.

Anyway It's another tragic day in Australian aviation.

As for the questions about landing gear, if it were me and I needed to get slow and dirty, I'd rather extend the wheels and record it on the MR, than have my accident and demise being discussed on pprune.

GG.

You talk guess - we have more facts. Tell the young folk gossip if that is what you wish.

I guess you - as per prev comments on this site know all. Thanks for your personal weather info for that afternoon - must have been what save the rest of us!

Welcome to PM me - if you need.

As for fact 3 aircraft did not depart - Yak 52, Pitts and a Jabiru. Also 1 of my children I was about to put on that aircraft, but then almost 1 other child was about to be on that flight as they had 2 spare seats.

Right from day dot in aviation we all get called upon to make decisions, when I make mine I take into account many things including my passengers well being. Regardless of the angst caused it would appear only three PIC's on that day made the right one, it has various forms including pressonitis. IthinkIcangetthere & she'llberight .... beat the crap out of me on Pprune if you like but regardless of the ton of hurt that is with his mates today, unfortunately this PIC made the wrong decision and has paid the ultimate price, one hopes we may all be able to learn from his sacrifice, especially the young sprogs :sad:

Well, it appears the same old lessons are never learned in GA.

If you don't want accidents discussed/dissected on pprune, don't have them.

(P.S. we won't mention Whyalla)

Rutan, not wishing to detract from the sad and serious issues being discussed here, but you're incorrect in this statement:

The not very lamented Cessna 205 was effectively a fixed-gear 210 - which is why it was designated a Cessna 210-5.

Avgas172 it must be wonderful to know exactly what went wrong thus allowing you to make your ill considered insensitive statement. Read the type of aircraft that didn't leave. Those pilots made the right decision in not flying that day but if they'd had 210s and the appropriate experience they may well have left with the other seven. I have operated in that area for 17 years in a C210 and know the forecast is often very different to actual weather and also can vary greatly over a short time period as well as a short distance.

By all accounts this pilot did not suffer from pressonitis and was very experienced in the area and aircraft type. It may well have been a case of the holes in the Swiss cheese lining up at the worst possible moment. Sounds like you've ruled out everything except weather, on very little information.

So far, I think we can agree that 2013 has been a sh!t of a year for General Aviation in Aust.

Whatever the causes, I would much rather hear the stories of how not to do something first hand over a beer in a bar, and learn that way, rather than reading an ATSB report.

RIP.

Great idea! It will revolutionise pilot training. No more breifings in a boring fly school - Down the pub we go.....

:rolleyes:





.

Well, when most people go through a tuff time in their lives they look to improve things.... Others, they just want to spread their misery..:hmm:






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Flying Binghi:

You mean flying schools don't offer briefings in the bar? What is the world coming to!

:)

(Apologies - my beer in the bar comment didn't come out quite right...but my point is, I'd rather hear the stories first hand, not read an ATSB / Coroners report.)

What i could do with multiple call signs...
 

Hmmm... post designed to keep the churn going methinks..:hmm:

First, lets get that appeal to emotion. I must be a good poster because - i think of the pax, i think of the young sprogs

Second, now that you've established yer a good person, tell the mates suffering "hurt" to go to hell because yer a good person and you will post what yer please.

Third, blame the "mates" for flying that day as that will get more 'bites' and keep the churn going....

Think that about covers it..:hmm:

Dora 9 If it left the factory with different doors and fixed gear it wasn't a C210. It was as you say a C210-5 and soon after just C205.
Over the years many people have mistakenly believed that 210s with fully enclosed gear (before the N model) had fixed gear until T/O and the wheels disappeared.

I have flown almost that exact route in a c210 and distinctly remember one wet season (2000?) being forced lower and lower down to below 500 feet under cloud with two big black columns of water from cells many miles wide each side of my track. It was north of the Fitzmaurice. I was heading for the gap between the rain columns - where it was light on the other side. It was getting darker and darker under the thunderheads, I felt like a moth to a light.

As I got closer, two huge lightning bolts arced into the ground in the gap, and it seemed to narrow quickly. Bugger this I thought.

I still had an out behind me - and the fuel - and turned around getting buffeted by the blast coming out the bottom of the cells. I headed south and then picked my way eastwards then northwards getting to Darwin with an extra 0.8 on the tacho.

RIP fellow flier.

Take it easy guys, nobody knows it all here so lets have a little respect discuss the known facts (WX & the abilities good or bad of the C210 for Eg) & keep it civilized otherwise the Mods will slam this thread shut & then no one learns anything other than the high levels of testosterone that runs rampant on PPRuNe

Aviation is a risk we all know that, we accept the risks & we mitigate them the best we can by being clever & learning from others, lets do that here okay?

Wmk2

Rutan.

PM sent....

I think VH-EFB has parked in PDN quite a bit (brown livery down the sides, or maybe blue?), over near Air Frontier and AV8.

If its the same one that i am thinking of, it was well kitted out with a full glass panel and dual 540's etc. Looked like it had been refurbed really nicely. A really nice bit of kit. Assuming its the same machine.

Unfortunately all that gear is great to have but still wont save you if the **** hits the fan and the options vanish quickly.

Churn away Bingsta, I for one would love to hear your thoughts on this?

(P.S. we won't mention Whyalla)

"As I got closer, two huge lightning bolts arced into the ground in the gap, and it seemed to narrow quickly. Bugger this I thought. "

That was the best thought you had that flight.. Possibly in your life..

Who knows exactly what happened this flight, or in many others. As Ernest Gann put it , many great pilots are not here to put up their own argument..

What I will say is this. When we lose people that we care about, it can be hard to admit they may have been all or in part at fault, or made decisions that led to the outcome, but in aviation we have to be open and honest particularly with ourselves to try and limit the number of these accidents. Blindly protecting anyone will lead to more disasters of this nature, and the facts will come out in time whatever happened.

This is not the place to come if you have recently lost someone, because we will discuss what may have happened here on a rumour network. There is nothing wrong with this.. It is important to speculate because it opens up other avenues of thought that may save one single person and that would surely be enough. The truth in this incident may or may not come out in time. I hope it does.

Sorry to those who are experiencing the loss..

I have had to turn back on the odd occasion, but I don't enjoy turning back. There have probably been more than one occasion where I didn't turn back and should have, but successfully made it through. What seems like such a big reason to press on at the time, in reality, can always wait until later or the next day. Processing those reasons at a time of duress puts us under even more stress.

I've also had many a boating experience where many would set off and not make it and had to turn back. Sometimes you might be stuck for days whilst waiting for some better weather, so you just have to deal with it, seek alternatives and ride it out. A day off work at short notice is better than never showing up again.

PS: Not suggesting that this has anything to do with this tragic accident, am just adding to the pressing-on posts.

Have turned back in the same area in a C210 at 400ft due to the same conditions. Easier to wait it out at Kunna's or track east until you get clearer skies. Also have been 35nm over water west of Port Keats in a C310 and called it quits due to weather. The C208 with radar made it to about 10nm from Ypkt and followed me back to Darwin.Have also been 80nm west over water in a C310 Darwin to Truscott due to similar weather.
My point being.- Know when to turn back and have options. Wet season in the Top End, Don't fly without a current IFR rating even if the plane is vfr. It can mean the difference between life and death. Maybe it might have helped these people.

How much time ?
 

C Stall raised a good point, that being that all it cost him was 0.8, not much in logbook terms or MR time.

Once upon a time I did a survey of revenue hours "lost" due to Wet season WX diversion and plodding around looking for VMC, for our Arnhemland 206 / 210 / BE58 'fleet'. It was..... 1% of total MR hours, so it's financial cost was zip, proving there is no excuse for financial pressure to be a reason to 'get through'. That 1% would also have been a great learning experience for the PIC, in teaching them how to locate more VMC by reading the cloud / rain / ground around them.

The other side of that is that starting a marginal flight, for an extra hour in the book, is pointless if that hour carries 90% of all the risk you carried in that entire logbook.
So we DID 'lose' more through not actually incurring MR time, by staying on the ground watching the trees 500m away turning gray and disappearing. Of course, no other company got the work because they weren't flying either ! Even MAF; they asked God and God told them to f**k off.

Most pressure to fly is self induced. Who really knows what happened in this PIC's mind before and after he left Bullo. A commercial pilot in the chaotic bush environment may have a mixture of adrenaline, fatigue, task orientation and greed, but that is a different paradigm to what happened here.

Someone mentioned staying over land in the Dry and over water in the Wet. Yeah ok, but its a long way to East Timor or New Caledonia. Also if you are trying to get to Milingimbi but all you can see is North Crocodile Island from 500', then that's Nature's way of saying you've (actually me !) really f**ked up :)

210's slapping wings ? So, who knows if that hard landing in Dogs Dick, Arkansas, in 1979 cracked the spar or not ? The thing has a current MR and your endorsement taught you how to fly it, so just FLY IT - the rest is academic; you're a pilot not an aerospace engineer, and you've chosen that. To a certain extent, it will always be 'mine to chose; fate to decide.'

Yo....

Binghi, seriously you have a problem, you have made well over a thousand posts in half the time I have made 250, I am who I say I am, learnt to fly at the NQAC in 1987, and have spent the last 30 years learning. If this discussion was related to the road user, culpable driving causing death could be the outcome from the investigation. Not knowing at this time what was the cause of the accident we mere mortals can only look into ourselves and ask what would WE do in the same situation ... One hopes the answer is to be certain those lives under our charge were not put at any risk whatsoever. As I said in my previous post you may not like it but you will have to live with it.

When you fly into that funnel and know you need to do a U-turn at 500ft.
Use the autopilot if you have one, or keep a eye on your altimeter.

Don't worry about your wings falling off - most unlikely thing ever to happen to you.

But the water/ground will certainly kill you at 0 feet every time.

The Bingsta is a very average individual whose credentials are questionable. Don't get roped into his skulduggery lest you lower yourself to his level. :cool:

"hear your thoughts", "skulduggery"...:confused:

I think i best leave you with that Jack Ranger.


My "credentials" as i have posted before, several times, is i'm just a dumb ol barely literate hill farmer who just happens to fly. And, i'm a barely average pilot at that.




.

err..:confused:

Whatever, ATSB have opened a file on this accident. We will know some more in due course.


Investigation: AO-2013-063 - Collision with water involving Cessna 210, VH-EFB, approximately 100 km NNE Wadeye, Northern Territory on 1 April 2013



.

Recent stuff has shown than ASTB is not BASI so that "'We will know some more in due course" is like anything from Canberra ie " We will get more meaningless s**t"

edited to add

means "maybe sometime"

The ATSB & I do not share the same definition of "in due course"

Strange day...

"in due course" is a term i used - Not ATSB

I can't recall the person who made this quote or the exact words of the quote itself, but it is one that I always kept in the back of my mind when flying VFR.

The quote from an air safety investigator (nationality unknown) went something like this when commenting on aircraft accidents involving inadvertent VFR flight into IMC: Maybe somebody can source and post the exact quote because it is a good one for VFR pilots to remember when making go/no go decisions (and for clarification I'm not relating this quote as necessarily being the cause of the current accident situation. Other more qualified people than I will make that determination).

I recall that line following a CFIT loss of an aircraft (Cherokee ?) in poor Wx west of Scone late afternoon and when the accident site was found soon after, it was CAVOK. Female pax died and pilot survived overnight ordeal I recall.

Same applies to floods, mostly rescue efforts are in sunshine.