Has anyone posted this simple look at the turn:

Should You Turnback?

... which is a precis of this .pdf, also by the good Doctor:

http://jeremy.zawodny.com/flying/turnback.pdf

Folks,
Interestingly, there is an interesting decision about a crash, where the PIC did not follow the manufacturer's manual "recommendations" .
The pilot was sued for the damages to the aircraft.

The case went all the way through to the NSW Court of Appeal, a three man bench found for the pilot, on the basis of the power of the pilot in command as the final authority on the operation of the aircraft, overrode the manufacturer's manual.

Markeyhttp://www.austlii.edu.au/images/dispright.png v Wansey & Ors [2002] NSWCA 221 (11 July 2002)

This is really quite an important, but little known judgement, that has quite widespread application.


Tootle pip

The Pilot in Command has absolute authority. (full stop).

There is no democracy on the flight deck, be it a C172 or A380.

However perhaps somebody can set me free of something I was brought up to believe in this vein. That is if a PIC declares a MERCY FLIGHT he is immune from existing rules and regulations for his/her inted flight?

Or perhaps an Air traffic Controller actually "controlls" the flight?

who's in charge....
 

My understanding is that while an ATC can give you a "clear to land", it has no meaning in the sense that the PIC must see that it IS clear to land and just not take his word for it.
If the PIC hits something, its his/her fault for not seeing the way wasnt clear.
What are the legal and moral obligations of the ATC ? He/she is supposed to do their job "properly" but the ULTIMATE responsibility rests with the PIC.

I can remember in years gone by when one got a call during the flight... from an ATC stating that they considered the conditions unsuitable for VFR..wotcha gunna do ??? My consideration from the elevated viewpoint was that I had a better assessment of the actual wx from where I was sitting.
And as PIC, who's handling the cat?? And whose ultimate responsibility for the safe conduct of the flight is it??
Thankfully that method of remote control didnt last long, because PIC means what it says.

Nevertheless ATC notwithstanding there are lots of "control" freaks around.
:eek:

A mercy flight is a flight which it is know will break some rule or regulation before the flight even begins - however this is justified in order to save life. The pilot still commands.

Up until the mid-80s, Australia (uniquely) had a legal system in which Air Traffic Control exercised "Operational Control" over flights. That meant they could legally direct the pilot to fly to a destination, based on their understanding of (for example) the aircraft's declared fuel state.

It would go something like:

"Lufthansa 23, say your fuel state."
"8000kg, Lufthansa 23"
"Lufthansa 23, Melbourne is experiencing thunderstorms, you have insufficient for possible holding, and are directed to divert to Sydney."

Aora,

At Hammo one day, heavy showers had cleared and can see half way to destination and radar shows clear the rest of the way clear so decide to head off. I requested taxi clearance and provided intentions and was advised airspace closed to VFR - what are your intentions?

At the runway holding point looking at where I'm going and thinking buggar - if I don't get out in this break I could end up spending the night here.

A couple of seconds later comes the moment of inspiration followed by the radio call - 'Request Special VFR'.

It was that easy - and so was the flight as for that matter. From memory it did close back in later.

Don't forget the "substitution test" which is used in Just Culture and also by the legal system. If the PIC makes a decision which is not one that a normal, substituted PIC, would make they may be more culpable.

Am interested in anyone with experience with the substitution test.

Thank you for the link, well worth the time taken to read it; just about says it all.:Dhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/sr...ies/thumbs.gif

EFATO - Forward to casa??
 

Maybe someone should forward this to casa and ATSB??

May have been useful for the analysis of PA30 at Camden and the Darwin Brazillia - perhaps should be mandatory reading for all pilots and certainly useful for multi IF renewals!!

Leadsled
 

Leadsled,

I sent you a PM. Im not sure you have yours turned on.

mjbow2

Turning back RAAF style (in an ejector seat aircraft) is not about landing the thing. It is about deciding where you will leave the crater and how many beers you will have to buy for joining the caterpillar club.

If the turn-back isn't working you'd be mad not to!

Finally took some time to try it in the SportStar.

Stable climb at max rate, pull throttle, push hard forward, think for a few seconds, hard turn (>45 degrees) pull to load up the wings a bit. (more so with flaps)

250 ft. without flaps and 200ft with flaps to turn more than 180 degrees. (85KG below max gross, so I would expect a bit more sink when fully loaded.)

There was an instructor at Essendon in the 70's and early 80's that advocated this procedure. He is no longer with us as he never made it having to actually doing it in anger one day. Better to crash in control at the point of your choosing ( even limited choice) rather than out of it. It is far too complicated to be doing in the heat of the moment.

There are many variables. The rule we're taught is: "don't attempt it at less than 1000 AGL".

Am I going to do this it 300 ft because I know the aircraft can do it? Hell no!

Will I turn back at 800 feet (in this particular aircraft) when the alternative is densely built up suburb? **** yeah! :ok:

I do not have a date for this DH-82A EFATO accident in the Hunter Valley - but it is most graphic - and tragic.
The nose drop following the attempted turn - initially with rudder it would seem - is heart stopping.
Not for 'sensitive' viewers......

VERY Sad....However, we can all look at this and learn.....now.

"Don't try to turn back a Tiger Moth from 150 feet, especially when fitted with human speed brake"...

http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/...R199401106.PDF

Xfso both the people killed in that accident were friends of mine - that crash has as much relevance to this subject as the AF447 accident.

just last weekend.

how to handle EFATO properly.
http://www.aircraftpilots.com/attach...ush-jpg.17398/

casa and the NPRM 1007OS -
 

From the annex to the NRM:

Question is: Does this mean casa will stop the EFATO nonsense??