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-   -   Norfolk Island Ditching ATSB Report - ? (https://www.pprune.org/pacific-general-aviation-questions/468378-norfolk-island-ditching-atsb-report.html)

flying-spike 7th Sep 2012 21:11

Did he file a report
 
"Not sure about filing a report"
I think that 2.4 of the TSR requires it. If he did and the ops manager did why didn't they learn from that?

Jabawocky 7th Sep 2012 21:29

T28D

We are agreeing too much....

Having said that I was actually making comment on the quality and accuracy of the ATSB's work, not how well things were learned.

In the Whyalla case the education content that came out from CASA afterwards was equally woeful. Gobsmackingly so when you consider the amount of scientifically proven education material the CASA received but subsequently failed to deliver to GA.

One of the reasons we still have these crazy threads on operating pistons.

Back to this one though, how can industry benefit when the ATSB are publish in reports that may well be 98% brilliant but 2% deficient and that lets the whole side down.

I am far from perfect, and writing reports, you would get the 2%, but these guys are the pro's and leaving out serious chunks of casual factor information makes you wonder what else have they missed.

If a complete outsider read the report he would say, pilot had a once off cockup and the company should have been more helpful. Knowing that there were several incidents of the exact same problem in the months prior, you would surely form a slightly different opinion, and where the corrective effort needs to be in future.

Our tax dollars..... Future loss of life......past loss in vain..... :sad:

Kharon 7th Sep 2012 22:02


T28D # 285 The will be no change whilst the blame can be sheeted home away from the actual causal events.
SPOT ON – until the blame shifting ethos is eradicated from the top down, little will change. The Minister needs to be sharper than this: why? because if it can be proven that the watchdogs (hate that expression) are hoodwinking the public, then not only the minister but the whole government may just take a tumbril (next stop Madam Guillotine).

It may be possible to avoid the chopping block by using the "I trusted the expert" defence, if (big if) the minister was in the dark; but once the lights are on and the Gummint has full knowledge; then things get sticky.

The ATSB and CASA boys and girls at the coal face can only do 'as directed', which is shame. As Jabba says, it would be much better to work with an operator to iron out the kinks before, rather than running about the place trying to cover arse after. Edit - Just read Plane Talking, just about say it all.

Ben Sandilands - Today.

advo-cate 7th Sep 2012 22:40

casa, atsb and the whyalla accident
 
While we are at it, it is worth a review as to the Coroners Report for this:

http://www.courts.sa.gov.au/Coroners...20Airlines.pdf

In part it says:


On 14 December 2001, only five days before the ATSB final report was published, the right engine in an aircraft identical to MZK failed.

Upon inspection of the engine, it was established that the crankshaft had fractured, and the appearance of the fracture was strikingly similar to that of MZK’s left engine crankshaft.

The ATSB did not examine the fracture in detail, so the aircraft owner commissioned an examination by an engineer who concluded that the failure was caused by a material flaw, and not by thermal cracking.


A scientific investigation conducted for this inquiry has thrown doubt on a number of ATSB conclusions:
  • Professor King, an expert in chemical engineering and Dr Zockel, an expert in mechanical engineering, both agreed with the ATSB that the damage to the right engine was due to end gas detonation;
  • Professor King concluded that there was considerable doubt about the ATSB conclusion that lead oxybromides were present in sufficient quantity to be a significant factor in the failure of the left engine;
  • Dr Zockel concluded that the damage to the left crankshaft was not caused during the combustion stroke of the engine and so abnormal combustion was irrelevant anyway;
  • Dr Zockel also concluded that the failure of the left crankshaft was not caused by bearing failure or thermal cracking as suggested by the ATSB;
  • Dr Powell and Mr McLean, both experts in metallurgy, found iron oxide inclusions at the nearby No.5 journal of the left crankshaft of sufficient size to constitute a material defect capable of affecting the tensile and torsional strength of the crankshaft. Although similar inclusions were not found at the fracture site, they could have been lost during the fracture process;
  • Mr Braly, an aeronautical engineer, aviator and manufacturer of aircraft components, also disputed that lead oxybromides were relevant to the failure of MZK’s left engine, that the crankshaft could have remained ‘dogged’ as the ATSB suggested, that the aircraft could have maintained 167 knots groundspeed on one engine after 1847:15, and hence that the left engine failed first. He argued that the right engine suffered a partial loss of power at 1847:15, and that it was not until after 1858 or so that the left engine failed;
  • Mr Braly also said that the mixture settings adopted by Whyalla Airlines for the climb phase of flight were too lean, and these settings may have caused or exacerbated the damage to the right engine;
  • Mr Hood, a metallurgist with McSwain Engineering Inc. in the United States of America also confirmed that the left engine crankshaft in MZK did not fail due to thermal cracking initiated fatigue fracture, that bearing failure was not relevant, and that the crankshaft failure was due to a ‘manufacturing-related material condition’. Like Dr Powell and Mr McLean, they were unable to identify an inclusion in the metal at the fracture site, but he found a ‘pocket’ there, from where an inclusion may have fallen during the fracture process.

Remind us of the PelAir report??? by atsb and the "downgrading" by casa with the use of the MoU??

Greedy 7th Sep 2012 23:07

Firstly, apologies to Dom. As well as sympathy. If he reads this thread he must feel like a spectator at his own public execution.
I noted that in the report that prior to publishing the ATSB final report "organisations"are invited to comment on the draft. Can some one inform me if individuals ie the Captain and First Officer or other parties are "invited" to comment.
Greedy

Roj approved 7th Sep 2012 23:57


However a good investigator wouldn't stop there they should be asking questions like:
1) Prior to Dom's employment with PA did he display cowboy, risk taking, non-compliant behaviour? Y/N
2) How did Dom perform in previous checks/CRM courses etc i.e. within TCS system?
Umm, i think i know the answer to question 1. Y (maybe a quick chat with some former employers):=

and i think the answer to question 2 may not be in his favour either.

john62 8th Sep 2012 02:26

All the deficiencies and RCAs in the CASA report are symptomatic of an underlying problem. That problem was the culture at Pelair. The audit hints at this in several areas, but does not go far enough IMHO.

Since the accident. Pelair has claimed alternate fuel was not required for aerial work category. That may be strictly legal but it is hardly prudent in that part of the world.

The CASA report states it was not confirmed whether or not these flights were Aerial Work or Charter (page 12). Why not? Why could CASA not determine the category of operations being conducted under the AOC?

The pilots interviewed said they didn't know if they were Aerial Work or Charter (and therefore they could not know what regulations governed their flight planning). The pilots further said they planed as if they were Charter. It appears they did in general. However 3 flights in the 2 months prior to the crash arrived at Norfolk with less that alternate fuel, and so did not comply with Charter requirements. They would only be legal if Aerial Work. The PIC for one of these flights was the former CP and the then WW standards manager.

So what exactly was a junior Captain to make of all this? He screwed up big time. However the system let him down, and I believe most here recognise this. Dom may have a reputation for being too casual in his approach. However he operated in an environment that was equally casual and facilitated this behavior. What Dom really required was an old fashioned kick up the backside long before this flight. I can't see who at Pelair was going to do this.

A marginal fuel policy. Poor oversight of someone who perhaps needed to operate under a very tight system. No RVSM capability. Problems accessing Noumea. Sooner or later luck was going to run out. The only surprise here is that all lived.

HEALY 8th Sep 2012 04:37

My observation could be really picky and obsolete however I have my own thoughts based on watching the Four Corners doco. At the end of the day the episode shown would only have been watched purely by those who tune in every week for this programme. I would not imagine that many others would have made special effort to watch this EXCEPT for those in the industry discussing this as we read/type.

The crew have been given a good roasting on this forum and as mentioned previously "watched his own execution". Having been under commercial pressures like Dom and have as many others I was willing to have a reserved judgement on his decisions that night and his demeanour thru the interview given the reports findings.....hats off for putting yourself on camera given the media scrutiny!!

Had it of been me going in front of the camera I would have known that it wasn't the usual ABC viewers tuning in every week that I had to convince of my decision making rather my own peers who are picking at my apparent relaxed attitude towards the flight planning and the cowboy attitude that has been hinted on this very forum. For this position to be in (and again I am being very picky here) why wouldnt you show yourself in a very professional light by at least doing the buttons up on your shirt or even go as far as wearing a tie. Having the appearance shown as the Cleo award (which he even mentioned as inappropriate) shows a relaxed and casual approach which is exactly what people are making their decisions about his character:ugh:

Although it's maybe slightly different you only have to see the QF32 episode to see the difference in how the crew are visually presented to make up minds for Joe public about what the industry is about. Although all rumours about character assassination you can always do yourself a favour.

thorn bird 8th Sep 2012 08:12

And how many innocent participants have there been in the USA's macabe little ritual killings because the "Media" didnt like their looks or demenor?? And how many innocent pilots have had their careers or businesses destroyed by an unnacountable bureaucrat because of personal vendetas. Perhaps the Skulls performance on the program is a fair indication of how the CASA works, much like Hong Kong I imagine, knives in the back and all.

Jinglie 8th Sep 2012 11:54

How many people read ATSB reports fully, a few hundred?? 4 Corners has a viewing of 800,000+. How else does a guy like Dominic (who should be referred to as the PIC or CPT not named), get his side of the story out? One guy against 2 very powerful government organisations acting suspiciously! What would you do. This stinks BAD!!!! The PIC has had the guts to stand up and face the questions. All he gets in response is "no comment" from Pel-Air, absolute embarrassing waffle from The CC of the ATSB (cant get any worse), and the Skull telling war stories about doing off-track oceanic diversions by long hand 40 years ago!
The PIC knows what mistakes he made and you can read that through his demeanour on 4 Corners. This report must be withdrawn and a new investigation re-written for the industry to learn from this. Maybe Geoff Thomson could head up the ATSB rather than Beaker!

blackhand 8th Sep 2012 20:36

@jinglie
Geoff Thompson's woefull understanding of CASA and ATSB would assist how??

chainsaw 8th Sep 2012 21:21

From crikey:

New evidence undermines credibility of Pel-Air inquiry | Plane Talking


An unedited video of the chief commissioner of the ATSB Martin Dolan taking 18 minutes to insist that Pel-Air wasn’t in breach of the conditions CASA found that it had been in breach of, and attempting to justify the report’s focus on the pilot who was carrying out the his duties according to the standards for which Pel-Air was responsible...
The idiot Minister ought to be asking some really hard questions and having a big arse-kicking party over all of this, but based on past performance, he won't. :mad:

Kharon 8th Sep 2012 21:30

Slight drift.
 

John -# 295 All the deficiencies and RCAs in the CASA report are symptomatic of an underlying problem.
This statement is made so often, by so many and is so fundamentally wrong it is worthy of a "thread" of it's very own. However I am only going to mildly disagree (it's Sunday). This statement is one of the major causes of AOC and licence /privileges loss, particularly through the AAT system. "Whoa, look at all these RCA, they must be dodgy".

Look at your opposition; you are challenging "the" Gummint sponsored, Minister backed publicly anointed "Heavy weight Champion" of public and ministerial Safety. You pitch up, to tackle the 'Champ' who has a significant advantage before the bell rings and then you offer a 20 point start. Think about it, with 20 or so unacquainted RCA the case against is made before you step into the ring. Then when the previous RCA get tacked onto the pile, it's a hiding to nothing before the first round bell rings

Each RCA issued must be challenged, 'destroyed' and expunged before you even think of taking on CASA in the AAT, nearly everyone overlooks this element. If the RCA list was analysed and even reduced 50% then the case against is weakened. If you can dismiss a further 20% as 'administrative' and have instituted 'corrective' action on the few remaining, then the case against becomes a thing of reality i.e. why are we really here? You cannot and must not allow a major league player (like CASA legal) a 20 point start.

There is nothing wrong with the RCA system when used correctly; but, a Tribunal Member or Judge will make the same wrong assumption. Challenge each RCA, pursue it and always make sure you can provide a written acquittal. It won't prevent the RCA being dragged up, but at least you have a chance of convincing the 'judge' that the 'pile' of heinous charges against you is reduced to a defendable size.

Bit like having a dust up with Missus, you know, "twenty years ago you were late home and said you missed the bus" etc. etc; now empirical evidence of further wrong doings. You know how it works.

blackhand 8th Sep 2012 21:40


Plane Talking isn’t able to determine the validity of the information provided but the avoidance
@chainsaw, and you call this evidence?
My understanding is that ATSB found that the PIC did not comply with the Procedures as laid down in the approved Procedures Manual.

SEPERATE to this, CASA found that the existing and approved procedures needing expanding. This I can only assume was required to allow for the lowest common denominator - a barely competent Pilot.

As Kharon has pointed out, the number of RCAs, Henceforth to be known as NCNs and previously known as CANs, has nought to do with the argument. One issue can generate several NCNs, each NCN refers to the initial issue but is recorded under a different regulation.
It is important that one identifies Root cause, remedial action and corrective action to get the NCN closed quickly.

Kharon 8th Sep 2012 22:36


BH # 302 CASA found that the existing and approved procedures needing expanding.
Tricky, subjective business for not just CASA this; they are damned if they do and damned if they don't. All the CASA team can do is recommend (suggest, bully or insist) that a company fuel planning policy is 'compliant'. The easiest way is simply comply with the AFM procedures, that is guaranteed legal. Clear, unambiguous statements in the COM regarding 'fuel planning' policy, flight planning policy and perhaps recommended 'methodology', will cover the operators arse; but regrettably, dump the PIC straight in the cart if policy is not followed. Unless the 'policy is, after the event, proven flawed; round and round she goes etc. Feast day for the legal eagles.

The key (IMO) is company recommended practice and procedure which allows Command discretion (wriggle room) but does not compromise anyone's 'rice bowl'. Deuced tricky problem for all; 20/20 hindsight of course is always through rose coloured glasses.

The problem is that after the event, someone is going to carry the can, if 'they' were part of the problem with 'fuel' then, they can be held accountable. This is most unsatisfactory – for all.

chainsaw 9th Sep 2012 00:12


An unedited video of the chief commissioner of the ATSB Martin Dolan taking 18 minutes to insist that Pel-Air wasn’t in breach of the conditions CASA found that it had been in breach of, and attempting to justify the report’s focus on the pilot who was carrying out the his duties according to the standards for which Pel-Air was responsible...
http://mpegmedia.abc.net.au/news/fou...Dolan_288p.mp4

chainsaw, and you call this evidence?

Well, seeing as it's a video of Dolan explaining things from the ATSB's perspective, and not hearsay, the answer's YES, especially noting where Dolan stated that the ATSB did not think that it was particularly relevant that PA was breaching regulations and legislation. :ugh:

Jinglie 9th Sep 2012 00:14

blackhand,
I didn't mention CASA. And when you look at the CC's 18 minute interview, it's clear who has a woeful understanding, and it's not Thompson.

blackhand 9th Sep 2012 01:05


that PA was breaching regulations and legislation. :ugh:
Which ones?

@jinglie Thats Ok bloke, I respectfully disagree.

chainsaw 9th Sep 2012 02:52

blackhand...

The explanation that you're seeking should be directed at Martin Dolan, because it was him who stated that the ATSB did not think that it was particularly relevant that PA was breaching regulations and legislation.

You ask which regulations PA didn't comply with. The answer to your question was in the CASA Safety Audit Report if you'd bothered to read it. In summary the CASA audit found the following noncompliances in the group:

CAR220(1)
CAR215(2)
CAR 233(3)
CAR 78 and CAO 82.1
CAR 235(1) and (2)
CAR 233(1)
CAO20.7.1B parts 4, 7 & 12
CAR 215(8)
CAO 20.11 parts 11 & 12
CAO 82.1 para 3.3
CAO 40.0 para 5.1, resulting in noncompliance with CAR 215(2)
CAR 215(9)
CASR 92.095
CAR 5.04
CAO 48 para 4
CAR 50
CAR 253(4)
Act Section 28BE paragraph (1), (2), (3a), and (3b).

blackhand 9th Sep 2012 04:28


if you'd bothered to read it.
Mmmm why the antagonism, this is a discussion with varying opinions.

Lookleft 9th Sep 2012 09:39

What has Norfolk taught you?
 
As accident reports are meant to provide lessons on how to avoid a similar incident occuring again, what have ppruners learnt from this accident?
For me it confirms a few things such as:
  1. Always have a plan B
  2. Just because its the legal minimum doesn't mean its the maximum acceptable.
  3. Don't trust your employer to be covering your back.
  4. If the conditions aren't suitable for an approach-hold
  5. If a ditching is required tell someone where you are
  6. Know your aircraft and have rough rules of thumb to work out what fuel is required.
  7. Murphy and his book of rules are a constant companion
  8. Max landing weight+fuel burn(up to MTOW)-max zero is an acceptable flight planning equation

Jinglie 9th Sep 2012 10:57

Lookleft,

Couldn't agree more! However, I'd like to see the real report that covers all the issues, not this non-offensive waffle that has been produced by the ATSB - and changed due errors, after the final report was released. It begs the question, when is a final report final??? Should there be version control on final reports? Maybe it should be released in "track changes", just to make it easy for us.

dogcharlietree 9th Sep 2012 11:54


What has Norfolk taught you?
That there is one helluva difference between the terms "pilot in command" and "Captain". ie Dominic James and Richard de Crespigny.
It takes much more than the books can teach you to be a good captain.

Kharon 9th Sep 2012 20:22

Willyleaks feed
 

CS # 307 - The explanation that you're seeking should be directed at Martin Dolan,
Dunno if I could sit still that long. 'Gollum the Glove Puppet' tells porky pies.

Anyway – at great cost and not without some danger; we got a WillyLeaks video feed from the secret, post prang Monday morning meeting.


Sarcs 9th Sep 2012 23:18

The observations from the QF pilot in Sandilands article absolutely nails the state of play with the PA ditching report:

I am a Qantas pilot and have been reading the ATSB report of the Pel-Air Norfolk Island accident. From my own reading and conversations with fellow professionals, I have become deeply concerned about the accuracy of information presented as “fact” in the report.
Reading the ATSB report, one of the systemic issues that has been missed and a possible error in detail in the report is the part where the ATSB takes issue with the Captain not asking if any amended TAFs [terminal area or aerodrome forecasts] had been issued for Norfolk Island. This seems like a stupid statement as, if it hadn’t been brought to his attention that an amended TAF had been issued, why would he ask for it? TAFs are issued at routine intervals. Amended TAFs are only issued if something fundamental has changed in the weather and are issued ad hoc, therefore, unless someone lets you know one has been issued, you would never know. The ATSB report then goes on to say that “Nadi ATC did not, and was not required by any international agreement to, proactively provide the 0803 amended Norfolk Island TAF to the flight crew”. Why is this not a “finding” of the report then?
If a TAF is amended and it fundamentally impacts the safety of an aircraft in flight, why wouldn’t it be a requirement to let the Captain know about it? This seems insane! If this is true, the laws need changing and therefore it is a systemic problem and should have been a finding.
That being said, I am not convinced it is true. In the Air Services Australia Aeronautical Information Publication (AIP), section GEN 3.3, paras 2.5.1, 2.5.4 and 2.5.5 seem to indicate that ATC should be providing pilots with flight information services about the existence of non-routine meteorological reports affecting the safety of relevant aircraft. My reading of these paragraphs lead me to believe the either the ATSB is wrong and Nadi was definitely obliged to inform the Captain of the amended TAF so that he could have diverted to a suitable alternate! I believe this is a crucial issue that has been missed by the ATSB. As a pilot with Qantas, it has also struck me as odd that the ATSB has made a lot of noise about the Captains fuel planning and suggestions of what he could/couldn’t have done with varying fuel load options and yet they haven’t included any numbers i.e. where are their calculations?
The reason this has struck me as odd is that some of the comments they have made about depressurised fuel loads don’t match up with my experience at Qantas and I would like to take a look at how they have calculated it to see if the ATSB hasn’t made an error. I will give you an example.
In Qantas jet operations, we have depressurisation decision points calculated for us pre-flight (by the way, right/wrong, safe/unsafe, these are only a preflight requirement… airborne you can burn into these fuels even if it means your decision point would no longer be valid). As the depressurised fuels do not require a variable reserve and two-engine fuel does, nearly always the depressurised fuel required for a flight is actually less than what would be required legally for two engines. My point is, ATSB has said if depressurised fuel had been calculated, the Captain would have had MORE fuel on board than he carried. This hardly ever seems to be the case in my experience and on the odd occasion it is required, it isn’t usually a significant amount. Considering the Pel-Air Captain had enough fuel on board to not only meet his legal two-engine requirements, but also shoot four approaches before ditching (with fuel still remaining), I find the ATSB assertions about fuel planning and options available less than compelling without data to back it up. I have spoken to friends on other fleets and other airlines to me, and I am not the only one who read this part of the report and was left wondering if the ATSB had cocked up their fuel calculations. We’d all be interested to see them. Another thing I find puzzling is that it is not a finding of the report that had the FO [first officer] been at flight planning, she may have been able to act as a hand-brake to the Captain leaving if indeed errors had been made. The FO, by company SOP, was not included in the flight planning. It seemed important enough to the ATSB to mention that Pel-Air has changed this policy, but not important enough to mention it in the preamble or the findings. The scary bit is that this practice was not Pel-Air specific. I have spoken to Qantas, Virgin and Jetstar pilots who started their RPT careers from Skippers, Network Aviation, Qantas Link etc and they have all indicated at their former employers, when acting as FOs, they would be sent to preflight the aircraft while the Captain did the flight planning. One final question I think needs answering is, why did the crew decide to continue? The ATSB report mentions that they didn’t think they could make Noumea, so they continued on. The report doesn’t answer the question as to why they came to this conclusion. I am assuming they just didn’t do this on a whim. Did they calculate a PNR [point of no return]? Were they past any PNR they may have calculated? If they had calculated a PNR (even if it was wrongly calculated) and they were past it, then it wouldn’t just be a case of them being unsure they couldn’t make Noumea, to them it would have been they had no option but to continue. I am sure I have heard somewhere in the media at the time of the prang or on Four Corners, somewhere, that the Captain had calculated a PNR and they had passed it when they finally became aware that the weather had not only gone below alternate minima, it had now gone below landing minima.
Pilots make decisions for reasons and the ATSB has failed to explain what the Captain’s reasoning was. If he had calculated a PNR, where is the data? If he had calculated a PNR, did he use the PNR examples in the Pel-Air manuals? This is vital information missing from the report as the ATSB has made several claims in their report of where they feel real PNRs existed and when decisions could have been made but weren’t.
I’m not for a minute suggesting that maybe the crew couldn’t have been more proactive, but if this report is supposed to explain to aviators why decisions were made that lead to an accident, then where are the explanations? Where are the details? Where are the pilots calculations and where are the ATSBs own calculations? I agree with your conclusion, that the ATSB and CASA seemed to have played the man on this one and the report, as it stands is toiler paper! If they are going to play the man, they could at least show the evidence to support their play. As it stands, playing the man without providing any supporting evidence at all makes me wonder what they are hiding (beyond the CASA adverse findings on Pel-Air that 4 Corners exposed!).
At Qantas we have ALL the systems in place that Pel-Air was lacking. We have a stringent fuel policy that includes decision points for depressurisation, ETOPS and single engine operations. We have a flight planning department that prepares our plans, weather, NOTAMS and makes all calculations for us. We are flight followed and the company lets us know if amended weathers are issued that will adversely affect our flight. Our operations department operates 24/7 and is available for us on the SAT phones they give us. At the end of the day, we are only the final layer of defense in that we check all these other factors before we depart. The Pel-Air audit found them lacking in all these respects.
Without any of these layers available to him, the Pel-Air Captain was the only defense. At Qantas, a lot of holes in a lot of layers of Swiss cheese have to line up for mistakes of this magnitude to happen; at Pel-Air it seems that there was only one layer, the Captain. While he made mistakes, he seems to be the only one being held accountable by CASA and the ATSB.

:ok:

It is further summed up by comment 2 of the article:

Fantastic commentary by the QF pilot you corresponded with. It does now seem ATSB (over)played the man in this incident. He certainly wasn’t blameless, but at the same time was part of a larger systemic safety issue at Pel-Air, which the ATSB seem to have downplayed for some reason. The more interesting question is ‘why?’. Why did they not take a tougher line with the operator? It doesn’t augur well for future investigations which are meant to be utterly objective and beyond reproach. Without the ABC investigation we probably be none the wiser.
:ok:

These coupled with the extended interview with MD, the dismal lack of conclusionary detail and lack of positive safety actions etc in ATSB final reports (in recent years) should be enough to have MD's head on a platter...and FFS scrap the CASA/ATSB MOU! :yuk:

New evidence undermines credibility of Pel-Air inquiry | Plane Talking

Top call Kharon on this thread, it is definitely past time!

http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-reporting...2011-a-22.html

The Green Goblin 10th Sep 2012 01:50

I've learnt that under:

Jepp ATC AU-107 6.1.1

'The objectives of the air traffic services are too:

Jepp ATC AU-107 6.1.1 d

'provide advice and information useful for the safe and efficient conduct of flights'

Is not always the case, and if they fail to pass you the information on, it's your fault for not knowing any better.

Whilst the skipper got himself in a spot of bother, if he had that information at the crucial time passed on time as per the mission statement of ATC, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Kharon 10th Sep 2012 06:29

Irksome
 
Well it is. There is no Coroner, no AAT, no Court and no where for this case to go. The Pell Air mess, the associated safety, compliance, ATSB reporting issues all; will simply slide off page one and so, into cyber space history.

There are some first class posts here, valuable logic and operational 'savvy'; all valid in the real world. What will be left behind, apart from a bad taste is the ATSB report. That's it. Future Pollies may use it for toilet paper, or it will be used in some wildly expensive insurance based civil action and that's it. Poof; gone a victim of smoke and mirrors.

Good job boys and girls; not too shabby at all.

Aye well. Beer o'clock, I see the old man has the top off one already. No bloody aviation at dinner, that's the rule.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/sr...ies/thumbs.gif :D

aroa 10th Sep 2012 07:08

lexicon and etc...
 
The 4c showed that the Westwind guy had another job , and the coie does too.
Which is good. :ok:
At least they weren't "Qadrio-ed" No job, no income, no licence, no career.:eek:
J Quadrio didnt drop a Robbo into the water and didnt nearly wipe out 6 people... saved by the Pelair bell were the other?

Wally Mk2 10th Sep 2012 07:34

"K" that's very well put yr last post, at the end of the day the whole event from the time they had no option but to ditch to the shambles of a report being filed in the round file it was destined to lead to nowhere.
The flight crew obviously didn't walk out the door that day/night thinking this is gunna end in tears but due to a variety of mistakes made by ALL concerned the end products (the people on board) where the ones that got effected.

Luck, divine intervention call it what ya like the outcome was favorable & so another human induced event fades into the annuls of our aviation history.
Like car accidents we have them daily where people lives are effected 4ever yet we continue to parade them out night after night on the TV & don't learn a damned thing!!!

We humans where never to good at learning from our mistakes we just keep inventing new ones !


Wmk2

aroa 10th Sep 2012 07:37

lexicon and etc...
 
The 4Cs showed that the Westwind guy had another job , and the coie does too.
Which is good. :ok: Free to carry on a career. After a night to remember.

At least they weren't "Qadrio-ed" No job, no income, no licence, no career.:eek:

J Quadrio did NOT drop a Robbo into the water and did NOT nearly wipe out 6 people... saved by the Pelair bell were the others? Or the effluxion of CASA and ATSB. :mad: Do I detect a certain aroma here?? Or is it just plain old CYA 101?

JQs treatment should now be in the lexicon..

A quadrio. n..ie name of the act, to sh*t on someone, used by the regulator, without due process. ie do a quadrio on someone, a wrongful act without due process.

Quadrio-ed vb. The act of sh*tting on a person, by the regulator, without due process. ie he's been quadrioed... thus becoming the shattee.

Will be most interesting to see how these 2 diverse occurences finally play out.
Maybe the PelAir is over already.

Kharon 10th Sep 2012 21:37

Cheers Wally – it's not only the 'shambles' of a report that gets me. There have been a whole series of reports (Jetstar, Air North, Whyalla, Airtex etc. etc) which are effectively useless for industry practical intent and purpose.

They work fine for the CASA and the Minister and for at least one of the insurance companies; but, as far as being of any value in accident prevention, defining preventable accident or cause, producing cohesive guidelines, they are a none event. Think it was Sarcs a page or so back compared the BASI report on Seaview to the Air North Braz. Chalk and cheese.

The fix went in after Staunton (Seaview) to protect the minister, since then in a very legal way, through the Miller report and the MOU, the reports just mirror whatever the party line is at the time. Compare Jetstar reports to Tiger reports and you will see. Perhaps someone can put a link or four up.

I hear the Canley Vale report is due soon, betcha a choccy frog the report is skewed to the max; it will have to be; to protect and enshrine the CASA line taken during the rape of Airtex. Now the differences between PA and Airtex have to be justified and excused. Can't wait, then there will be the Coroners court. Happy days !.

One of these cases will come back and haunt them all, comparable situations, comparable alleged breaches, vastly different AOC outcome, different treatment of Check Training, different treatment of pilots; and, very, very different ATSB reports. Tick tock.

thorn bird 10th Sep 2012 22:00

There is a real difference between the JQ case and the Norfolk guy.
The first was just a poor country lad.
The latter came from a wealthy background.
A good lawyer could argue the guy breached no rules, lacking experience
and being a tad foolish is not a crime.
His licence was suspended by the Bankstown Ex RAAF baggage handler, but later reinstated so I heard. That wasnt because a well funded lawsuite was in the offering was it?

Kharon 10th Sep 2012 22:15

Happy days
 
Don't know why, but it makes me smile - a lot.


bdcer 10th Sep 2012 23:45

Kharon, that's a work of art!

flying-spike 10th Sep 2012 23:48

Was that an investigator's course?
 
I reckon the chick with the lawn rake had to be ATSB

Sarcs 10th Sep 2012 23:59


Compare Jetstar reports to Tiger reports and you will see. Perhaps someone can put a link or four up.
YWIMC (your wish is my command): Should be in this lot for Airbus 320s,330s with the right regos and minus the BOS, Airprox and onboard events (well some of them!)...

http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2011/aair/ao-2011-136.aspx

http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2011/aair/ao-2011-089.aspx

http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2011/aair/ao-2011-039.aspx

http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2010/aair/ao-2010-037.aspx

http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2009/aair/ao-2009-021.aspx

http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2007/aair/ao-2007-044.aspx

http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2008/aair/ao-2008-020.aspx

http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2010/aair/ao-2010-035.aspx

http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2011/aair/ao-2011-073.aspx

http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2009/aair/ao-2009-011.aspx

http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2010/aair/ao-2010-031.aspx

http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2008/aair/ao-2008-049.aspx

Fill your boots with that lot, can't promise you'll learn anything but it is a good comparison and probably shows 'Regulatory Capture' and the MOU in all its glory!:yuk::yuk:

Oh and here is a quote from the Braz training accident in Darwin...


Contributing safety factors

• The pilot in command initiated a simulated left engine failure just after becoming airborne and at a speed that did not allow adequate margin for error.
• The pilot in command simulated a failure of the left engine by selecting flight idle instead of zero thrust, thereby simulating a simultaneous failure of the left engine and its propeller autofeather system, instead of a failure of the engine alone.
• The pilot under check operated the aircraft at a speed and attitude (bank angle) that when uncorrected, resulted in a loss of control.
• The pilot under check increased his workload by increasing torque on the right engine and selecting the yaw damper.
• The pilot in command probably became preoccupied and did not abandon the simulated engine failure after the heading and speed tolerance for the manoeuvre were exceeded and before control of the aircraft was lost.

Other key findings

• Shortly after the accident, when an Australian aviation training facility operating an EMB-120 simulator and its staff were approved to undertake the operator’s training requirements, the operator transitioned the majority of its EMB-120 proficiency checking, including asymmetric flight sequences, to ground-based training at that facility.

:{

http://www.atsb.gov.au/media/3546615/ao-2010-019.pdf

I could do the same for Seaview but I don't believe the mods would appreciate it as the same section of that report holds about half a gig of conclusionary and safety action (SRs)...well worth a read though!:ok:

http://atsb.com.au/media/24362/aair199402804_001.pdf

Here's a couple more Airbus events for 2012:

http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2012/aair/ao-2012-116.aspx

http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2012/aair/ao-2012-103.aspx

QSK? 11th Sep 2012 00:49

Norfolk Island FIS Responsibility
 
Ref post #313

The ATSB report then goes on to say that “Nadi ATC did not, and was not required by any international agreement to, proactively provide the 0803 amended Norfolk Island TAF to the flight crew”. Why is this not a “finding” of the report then? If a TAF is amended and it fundamentally impacts the safety of an aircraft in flight, why wouldn’t it be a requirement to let the Captain know about it? This seems insane! If this is true, the laws need changing and therefore it is a systemic problem and should have been a finding.
It is a requirement to let the Captain know about an amended TAF and there are international standards covering how delivery responsibility is allocated to the ATS units, however the question in this incident is whose responsibility was it to direct the information to the incident aircraft; Airservices Australia or Airways NZ?

One thing for sure it is not a Nadi ATC responsibility as Norfolk Island is located in the Auckland Oceanic FIR so, under normal circumstances, the responsibility should rest with Airways NZ. However, the NZ AIP (Gen 3.3) specifically excludes Norfolk Island as an Airways ATS responsibility because Norfolk Island is administered by Australia and, therefore, by implication the NZ AIP assumes it is an Airservices Australia responsibility to pass amended TAFs to aircraft operating or intending to operate at Norfolk Island. This was certainly the case when there was an Airservices' Flight Service Unit (FSU) located at Norfolk Island who had the FIS responsibility and flight plans were addressed to the FSU to assist them in their directed FIS delivery function.

When the FSU was decommissioned in the early 1990s and MBZ procedures were established at Norfolk Island, the ATS (including FIS) responsibility should have been transferred to the Brisbane FSC and, in my view, the NZ AIP wording appears to reflect this arrangement. However, in order for Airservices to provide a FIS, the Brisbane FSC would require access to all Norfolk Island flight plans including all those not transiting an Australian FIR. Were the relevant aircraft flight plans redirected to the Brisbane FSC once the Norfolk Island FSU was decommissioned? The alternative was to transfer the FIS responsibility to Airways NZ seeing Norfolk Island was in the Auckland Oceanic FIR, which was obviously not done.

To further complicate matters, Airservices' Flight Service function was subsequently amalgamated with the ATC function and, without access to the required flight plans (particularly those for Apia-Norfolk Island, Auckland-Norfolk Island, Nadi-Norfolk Island which do not go through any Australian FIR) Airservices would not have had the necessary data to provide a directed FIS for Norfolk Island. Furthermore, Airservices Australia then changed FIS responsibility from one where ATC provided a directed FIS service to placing responsibility on a pilot on an "on request" or "self help" basis using Flightwatch.

With all these changes over time, combined with the confusion caused by an Australian territory located in a foreign FIR but operating under Australian regulations and standards, I suspect Norfolk Island FIS delivery responsibility probably "fell through the cracks" between Australia and NZ when the FSU was decommissioned in the early 1990s, which may be another contributing reason why the Pel-Air pilot was not aware of the amended TAF on Norfolk Island; notwithstanding the pilot's own flight plan and in-flight update failings.

So the big question now is:

"DID ANYONE IN CASA OR AIRSERVICES ALERT THE CAA OF NZ OR AIRWAYS NZ OF THE CONTINUED NEED FOR AIRCRAFT FLIGHT PLANS TO BE ADDRESSED TO THE BRISBANE FSC ONCE THE NORFOLK ISLAND FSU WAS DECOMISSIONED IN THE 1990s ? AND FURTHERMORE DID ANYONE IN CASA OR AIRSERVICES COORDINATE WITH THEIR NZ COUNTERPARTS TO ALERT THEM TO THE OPERATIONAL IMPACT THAT THE CHANGE BY AIRSERVICES FROM A DIRECTED FIS TO AN ON REQUEST FLIGHTWATCH FIS MAY HAVE ON THE DELIVERY OF FIS AT NORFOLK ISLAND SO THAT THE NZ AGENCIES COULD REVIEW THEIR AIP AND ATS ARRANGEMENTS? I suspect not.

This issue needs to be resolved for the safety of future operations.

john_tullamarine 11th Sep 2012 01:23

Oh and here is a quote from the Braz training accident in Darwin...

I think that says it all for the specifics of the prang.

What didn't impress me was the Report's lack of detail on contributory operator shortcomings which, I presume, existed ...

Kharon 11th Sep 2012 07:16

Now - I love Tuesday.
 
A 'friend' emailed me a confidential report earlier today, wanted my thoughts on it before sending it off to wherever 'they' want to send it. (Thanks mate, I resisted editing it). It's some 20 pages long and deals with a fatal air accident. Got me thinking (not a usual Tuesday occupation).

OK. For the coveted 'Choccy Frog' which accident does it refer to??.


Many areas of 'operational' and legal significance have not, in our opinion been satisfactorily addressed or presented. These important, directly related elements, whilst technical are relatively straight forward; and, may be readily comprehended by 'the man in the street'. We believe that this information properly presented could have greatly assisted the Coroner formulate a decision with greater clarity.

From an industry point of view, it appears that the inquiry was ruthlessly driven to an almost forgone conclusion. Primarily by the omission of what is believed to be important information for the Coroner to consider; the inability of the court to interview essential witnesses and examine that testimony. Some of the Coroners remarks seem to reflect this.

One shortcoming, in our view of the ATSB is, that, unlike the USA National Transport Safety Bureau (NTSB), ATSB does not find a “most probable cause” of an accident, or present 'ranked' contributory causes.
Your Choccy Frog awaits.

LeadSled 11th Sep 2012 07:24


by the Bankstown Ex RAAF baggage handler,
Thorn Bird,
Give him a break, he was an RAAF Loadmaster ---- he gave the orders to the baggage handlers, pas comme ca. Credit where credit is due, and all that sort of thing.
Tootle pip!!



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