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pcx, I think you missed ALLAH's point - fog is never a problem if you have enough fuel to simply curse at it before going somewhere else. :rolleyes:
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Sorry I don't see any mention of fog in ALLAH's post.
All I see is mention of a single runway destination which is clearly incorrect. ALLAH posted without verifying the basis of his statement and thus, to my mind, displays his complete lack of credibility. By all means post your thoughts on this or any other thread. However, we are supposed to be professionals. We should at least get our basic facts correct. |
Anyone operating to a single runway airport in this part of the world WITHOUT an alternate, regardless of weather, day or night is mad. |
Never a weather problem, only a fuel problem. Anyone operating to [an] airport WITHOUT an alternate, regardless of weather, day or night is mad. Forget the rules and whats legal...airmanship is the answer.
That's my $0.02 |
pcx
All I see is mention of a single runway destination which is clearly incorrect. Capt Fathom That is a big call! Why is this part of the world different? |
We could discuss this all day and seemingly go round and round.
My point was very basic and simple. Clearly ALLAH did not do his or her research. That is not the mark of a professional pilot. The comment made by ALLAH was that an alternate should have been carried because YSNF has a single runway. This is obviously incorrect and adds nothing to the debate. If he or she had commented on the potential risks of an aerodrome with intersecting runways then great. That would prompt us all to consider these factors. Was I tough in my reply to ALLAH? I would say "yes". Maybe, just maybe, ALLAH will be really p...ed of with me and will be just that little bit more determined not to make the same type of mistake ever again. It just might help in what I sincerely hope will be a long and enjoyable incident free career. |
Don't know if poor old Dom' works for any airline these days. Stand to be corrected though?
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I'd hardly call him an airline pilot.
You have to be working or have worked for an airline to gain that title. |
Are both runways at NF rated for the aircraft in question?
As I hear it, the report is coming along but the FOI is kinda busy ATM. |
All I see is mention of a single runway destination which is clearly incorrect. A forecast cross wind exceeding the the limitations on one of the runways would also make it a single runway aerodrome for planning purposes. One runway not meeting either the width, strength or length for the aircraft type and operation would make it a single runway aerodrome for planning purposes. |
With all due respect pcx, I think you have missed the intent of Allah's post. It was simply an opinion about airmanship, not something you would have to research,and certainly not enough to warrent
That is not the mark of a professional pilot. Is English your second language? (I'm not being facetious, just wondering if thats causing the disconnect). |
A professional pilot would ALWAYS consider an intersecting rwy layout a SINGLE rwy AD especially out in the Pacific Ocean, that's what being a Capt is all about. Every time I went into any Pacific Is AD especially at night (due rwy lighting considerations) I had a plan B.
One day sometime ago now I was sitting at the gate of a Nth Qld AD on a nice sunny day after having landed a few mins earlier & watched a lighty from outside my cockpit window slide on in on the smaller crossing rwy only to do a bit of 4x4 work before coming to rest with the prop dug into the grass just a few mtrs from the gable markers of the main rwy, that's exactly the situation that could happen anywhere at any time so one should never rely on an AD with intersecting rwy's as being suitable. Wmk2 |
" an intersecting rwy layout a SINGLE rwy AD " ???
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" an intersecting rwy layout a SINGLE rwy AD " ??? |
Have a read of CAO 82 Appendix 5, 7 Table 1 to see how the multiple (separate) runways for a diversion is considered to be of lower risk than a single runway.
Even if YSNF had parallel runways and ILS, it should have an alternate though. Out of interest, what other countries in the world permit operations to aerodromes with no alternates (without even getting into the issue of Island aerodromes). |
PNG allows no alternates; basically copies Aussie rules with INTER & TEMPO fuel provisions. Not a good idea in that part of the world....only a mug would NOT carry an alternate. Whether one would stack the INTER or TEMPO fuel on top of the alternate (should the alternate itself require it) is a matter for individual judgement on the day. Personally I think that is a crock as I don't subscribe to double-jeopardy - alternate plus 30 has got me by all these years. The lowest fuel I ever landed with was 20 minutes which I admit was a bit tight.
The Oz situation is rather unique because of the excessive distances involved, so should not be copied in places where the distances are not so much as to be limiting. NLK - NOU is from memory a piddling 55 minutes at jet speeds. PS: Am in agreement with Jabawocky's assessment - harsh as it may seem. |
Jaba. I agree with you taking into account the following exceptions
So......poor planning, poor in flight monitoring, poor decission making in the cruise and poor decission making once it all turned to sh!t . So......NIL planning, NIL in flight monitoring, NIL decission making in the cruise and NIL decission making once it all turned to sh!t . This is the worst example of a "captain" (notice small c) that I have ever heard about. John Cleese must be making a training video. |
dogcharlietree
I think Jaba said “Poor” not “Nil”. Big difference. |
404. Please re-read what I said and what I quoted. helluva big difference. That's why I said it! :ugh:
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He must have done some planning......or blindly followed company plans perhaps.
The more you look atit though, nil is possibly a better word to use. |
From what I understand, at the time AWK ops, and for that matter Charter, were not required to carry an alternate for Norfolk! WX/Notams notwithstanding of course. Hello CASA, was anyone home! Now from a command point of view, I'd be extremely cautious about embarking on such a flight without at least another option up my sleeve. I'm assuming of course that the captain had calculated his relevant PNRs/CPs.
That brings us to the question, at what point did the crew learn the Wx at norfolk required an alternate, and was this information passed to them in time to take a different course of action? |
It's a fair question to ask krusty, and from distant memory when myself and a couple of others reviewed times distances and the weather being passed to the pilots, they could have made New Cal.
Probaly a good reason they did not want to! |
Ignore - Deny - Deny - Till the issue fades away :D
CASA Style :ok: |
Jingles old mate that is SOPs for the regulator and bureau these days...the word in bold says it all I'm afraid:
A ditching, Air-work category, jet, night time, in the ocean! Gobbles sums it up perfectly: A tough regulator is not afraid to take the big boys on, head on, and not willing to allow its testicles to be squeezed by the Minister, Board and other lines of protection. This is your starting point to achieve a higher standard of safety in the industry. Every time one of the 'big guys' f*cks up CASA should be throwing a rope around the accountable persons neck in that airline and punish them in accordance with the civil aviation act. You only have to do it once and the indsutry CEO/COO rogues will quickly take their money and run for safer grounds. Until that starts to happen there will be absolutely no improvement in safety or minimisation of risk. It's time for CASA to stop playing hand puppets with farmhand chopper pilots and chasing operators who forget to tuck in their uniforms while on duty, it is time to asctually oversight safety. |
Justice seeker rule 101 from the "bureaucratese" Ops manual, "if in doubt circle the wagons and prepare for a long seige and....."
http://i1238.photobucket.com/albums/...esized-600.png ..do not resurface until the coast is clear!":ok: |
Was not Airwork (ie air ambulance), was a Charter of aircraft and crew from Pelair by Careflight.
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Nowhere to go....
On long oceanic legs any pilot that had no alternate or is not fazed by the wx either,.. imho ...has steel balls and can land anything anywhere...or just a lead brain. PVT, CHTR, AWK...does it matter.
The guy that should get THE medal was the one who used his initiative and had a look from some high ground and spotted a faint light....as rough indicator as where to go with the boat. Had that not occured..or the view been obscured by rain, it would be another AE type mystery...where DID they end up, apart from in the water. How about that for a 'miracle'? Well I supose you could say he could land anything, anywhere....except it just was not the desired destination. :sad: Scary. |
What did the client specify??
Jinglie, believe Al is correct. The client specified their flights to be operated to charter standard together with a whole bunch of other requirements.
ATSB report is due shortly I am told. :D |
Jinglie, in order for it to be Airwork Category, ie an Air Ambulance operation, the patient or patients representatives must have contracted with Pelair to provide that aeromedical service. As I understand it, they did not. The clinical coordination was done through Careflight who accepted the case and chartered an aircraft and crew from Pelair as they did regularly. So for Pelair, it was a Charter.
If you have different info, would be glad to hear it. Regardless of that though, to launch on that flight with air in the tanks and the load capacity to take more weight in fuel cannot be a wise decision. Aroa is dead right about the only hero in the whole sorry saga - give that man a medal! |
You may be right - or not. I will await with interest the outcome of the report.... if I haven't died of old age by the time it comes out.
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What if that Air Ambulance flight is also carrying a passenger (i.e. not a patient or flight crew or medical staff)?
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Was it legal - PEL-Air? Was it legal CASA?...... |
I think it matters none what Cat this flight was conducted under (Air Work according to the report so far) it's still an A/C carrying people but the one underlying problem here is that less than max fuel was carried to an remote Is at night where the Wx was or could have been sus (as it turned obviously was very sus) in a light twin,that's the part that needs to be hammered home,simply be smart about the operation from a safety stand point not from a commercial stand point.
They where damned lucky it was a West Wind Jet you couldn't pick a better airframe to ditch with, engines up out of the way,fair amount of fuse blw the wings making it like a canoe with large outriggers! Doesn't matter what the report says or will say eventually does anybody ever learn from the mistakes of others in aviation?....rarely! Wmk2 |
Changes after the Event
I hope it won't result in an in-effective report like the Darwin Brasilia, where "....the Company involved has now gone to simulator training....so this won't happen again..."
Sorry - my paraphrasing of the report that came out sans any SR's [safety recommendations] by ATSB. Anyway, casa never take any notice of them anyway. We will see - ATSB you are on notice. |
The report should be released next thursday. It has been a long time coming. We will see if the lion share of blame is laid at the feet of the regulator, the operator or the pilot.
Jinglie may be close to the mark about a circus. |
Yes shall be very interesting to see. Surely Operator and Pilot won't be left unscathed.
We got lucky this time with no loss of life, so lets hope lessons will be learned. |
The captain is always to blame. Do you have anything else to speculate on before the official report?
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From what I have heard, most of the blame is directed at the crew. There are only minor criticisms of the operator and regulator.
Cookies must be enabled | Herald Sun It appears someone has sent a copy to the media. The slant of this article suggests it is not good news for the pilot. Four Corners is going to tell the "real story of what happened that night." So I guess they have also got a copy if they have produced a story over the last couple of weeks. Hopefully it will be better than the 60 minutes story at the time. |
The crew made four attempts to land in darkness before deciding to ditch after running out of fuel. |
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