This example is exactly the kind of situation where TCAS could save a life, provided the other aircraft had a transponder.
The pilot broke cloud to find a windshield full of aircraft. There was no time for see and avoid, and, although the RFDS aircraft was lower than normal, both aircraft had every right to be where they were.

My solution:
Transponder mandatory in all controlled airspace and establish an MBZ around all instrument approaches in uncontrolled airspace, plotted graphically on charts with clear vertical limits, and make this transponder mandatory also.
Airmanship would dictate IFR aircraft should not descend through cloud when below 3000' amsl or 1000' agl and not in these protected areas.

Has anyone heard of a Portable Transponder?, have to do a flight to have the Biannial RAD check done & wonder if something like this could be done.
cheers
A172

Indeed, Glek.

So Wally, why do we have TCAS if, in your words, "it isn't the answer in a SP environment"? IMO, it's absolutely essential in a single pilot environment, particularly in the airspace which the RFDS is operating, and the workload under which the RFDS's pilots work (you should know). In this case, see and avoid failed yet again. They were lucky this time. IF the pig had a transponder, then it's likely the near miss wouldn't have been as "near", as the RFDS aircraft would have been made aware via a TA or RA.

And that would have been a good thing.

IMO, the above example is a very good reason to have TCAS in a single pilot, high performance turboprop aeroplane.

In fact, why do most modern airliners have TCAS, when they are all multi-crew, Wally? TCAS has saved my bacon on a few occasions (even though we tried to separate the old fashioned way. Sometimes that just doesn't work, for a multitude of reasons.

The whole idea of TCAS is that it is the last line of defence if all else fails.

Why just high performance turboprops? Are you suggesting that the four people in the RFDS PC12 are more worthy of living than the four people in my V35B? I pop out of the clouds at 160 IAS - would not be much difference in the see-and-be-seen reaction time.

Bring on ADSB!

Dr :8

I don't think I've come across a thread on Pprune where so many people haven't read the f*cking thing properly, :confused:.

The RFDS aircraft was 56km's (30nm's), so on a standard 3 degree profile he would have been around 10,000ft. He was NOT at 730m's (2,400ft), he was on DESCENT to 2,400ft.

The PC-12 (turbo-prop, not jet), is not capable of 250kt's IAS at any time, it's VNe is 230kts.

Rant over, on with the thread.

TCAS is a great tool, especially in a single pilot cockpit (sorry Wal, have to disagree with you). The Collins Proline 21 has TCAS in it and I'm lost if it's not working!

I agree that every aircraft should have a working transponder. As others have said, the technology has been around for donkeys years, why is it not standard equipment?

morno

For f's sake, you can pick up a new transponder for around $1800 and even less for second hand plus install, which would probably total around 4k at the very most. If you can't afford this then you should not own an aeroplane.

That also includes gliders around busy CTAF(R) (YSDU), such as YNRM!

Make transponders mandatory! :ugh:

Is TCAS really that annoying? It has several different modes from off to TA to RA and just ON. I'm not a heavy metal guy but I'm sure the audible warnings can be at very least turned down.

Would rather be bugged by TCAS than be a giant bug squished across a 744's windscreen.

Hey Morno.

My initial reaction was exactly the same - people must have mis-interpreted the altitudes etc. But if you read the final report on the ATSB website....

Quote:

---

When about 56 km from the aerodrome, the pilot of FDK reported broadcasting an inbound call on the Mount Gambier CTAF advising that he was intending to track for a 10 NM (19 km) final for runway 18. Shortly after, the pilot sighted another aircraft (ELI) pass to the left from the opposite direction. The pilot reported that the aircraft was in such close proximity that the aircraft ‘rocked’ as it passed. At the time, FDK was on descent, approaching 2,400 ft.

---

The incident is listed as occuring at 53km NW Mount Gambier.

It would appear the PC12 was very, very low.

No Doc, I was just using turboprops as an example. Of course it is an important tool for all suitably equipped aircraft.

And Jenna, I 1000% agree. :ok:

A statement usually made by someone who doesn't own an aeroplane or Cate Blanchett.

Yes recently in either AVWEB or EAA email, but non TSO'd of course.

EDIT to include link;

LAST - Kinetic Avionic Products

You will need to convince RA-Aus to fit transponders to thousands of aircraft and the GA aircraft that don't have them too.

There is nothing to stop a light aircraft bobbing along clear of cloud below 3000 without transponder and an IFR jobbie punching down through it. Luckily we aren't heavy airspace users in those places without primary radar otherwise this would be a far more frequent occurrence.

What is the solution? ADSB???

There will always be inaccurate or faulty transponders or those without decent radio skills and position awareness.

Slippery_Pete, any pilot worth his salt would know that the 270 below 10 would refer to IAS. Naughty, naughty. Over to you......

Just goes to show a near miss could happen any where any time. My fear has been in and around any aerodrome and the accuracy gps provides with recipricol tracks. This "see and avoid" concept has too many flaws and relies on luck as what happened with this incident. TCAS sounds great and look forward to using it.
One question to those who use TCAS OCTA away from a radar environment. What is the temptation to become your own Air Traffic controller? I have heard stories of lazy types saying things like....."that's ok we have you on tcas, we will continue our climb, gday" and even times where nothing is said at all even though the tcas equipt aircraft is crossing anothers track on final within say a 10nm seperation? These tcas equipt guys I sense get a nice warm fuzzy secure feeling and can disregard acceptable seperation standards. I have a feeling this problem is creeping in. Again a problem that could cause more problems.

Hey morno,

Think you need to quit the rant and take some of your own advice.
The aircraft WAS below 3000', and that's why this occurred because the VFR aircraft had every right to be just below the cloud.

Additionally, a normal profile for an RFDS pc12 is a 2 to 1 (although 3 degree approaches are not uncommon), which actually increases the number of question marks about why the pc12 was down there so far out. That said, the same incident could have happened irrelevant of the distance from the field.

Many years ago an experienced pilot hired a C172 from a long since defunct flying school at Essendon. Maintenance release showed nil defects. En route to Point Cook via Westgate Bridge, ATC advised the pilot to switch on the transponder. The pilot checked and confirmed it was already on and had been since take off. ATC got upset and said it wasn't operating and that it was third time that week this particular aircraft had a u/s transponder and it better get fixed otherwise they would deny airspace.

The pilot decided to return immediately to EN and wrote up the defect and asked the CFI/owner why had he knowingly despatched this aircraft several times with a dodgy transponder? His reply was it was going to get looked at at the next 100 hourly and that so far ATC had always let it go. That same afternoon the CFI sent a student pilot off on his first solo cross-country with the same dodgy transponder. He said it saved him money by waiting for the 100 hourly.

What's the bet similar things still go on in GA and in remote areas?

Luddites Indeed!!

Using that argument, one should also remove the EGPWS, as the whooping can be distracting when shooting an approach. I myself find it difficult to find the inhibit button when dropping like a bleeding stone after missing my TOPD. While were about it, lets also take out the wx radar as it could distract you from trying to visually navigate around those line of storms on that dark night, think of the money it will save.

Straight home and don't spare the horses

Absolutely! Not much has changed in that regard!

Hmmm... whatever the reason, if they aint gunna look out the window then a slower speed at the lower levels would have been more appropriate..:hmm:






.

Especially those who fly in E at any level, just clear of cloud. Some in C at times :ugh:.

Give me a break. Whilst all the "see and avoid" lecturers are right in a general sense, in this instance it is not relevent.

As I understand it, the RFDS aircraft emerged from solid cloud, and within no more than a few seconds the other aircraft had flashed by. It happened so quickly that there was no time to see it, let alone avoid it.
It was pure luck that they did not come together.

I also understand that an initial investigation showed that the lighty had not successfully made any radio calls in relation to his departure from Mount Gambier.
Something wrong with the radio, apparently: They thought they were transmitting ok, but only carrier wave was heard from the other end.

So, the RFDS pilot could not have known the other aircraft was there (no transponder, and effectively, no radio).

And.... no time to see and avoid.

Oh, and no, it wasn't me...