Climbing to LSALT/MSA after takeoff
 

Hi guys,

IR renewal coming up and I have a question for all the IFR pilots out there.

Is there any legal requirement to stay within a certain distance of the aerodrome after takeoff while you climb to MSA/LSALT?

I know 5nm to get established on track & Jepps say climb after departure is one of the times you can fly below LSALT.

BUT

What if you takeoff from an aerodrome with a hill/mountain to the left of upwind, climb to 500' AGL and turn crosswind (assuming you can't see said mountain - IMC/night) and slap into it.

Is it just up to pilots knowledge of the area/common sense or is it written somewhere I haven't noticed

Cheers

As far as I know, yes it's just up to the pilot to maintain their own terrain clearance on departure.

So if unfamiliar a good, very good, look at the WAC, approach plates etc. and make a determination.

Takeoff and climb like a scalded cat in the direction you have determined as safe until you reach lsalt for your departure track.

Or when in doubt, climb overhead until LSALT just like a NVFR departure?

It's all up to you unless there's a SID or similar you can guarantee to make the gradient for.

Things to consider, which hopefully you already have seeing it's a renewal, you would be well advised to have a cunning master plan that includes the runway obstacle free gradient and splay (see the ERSA - based on runway surface width amongst other things) to cover you for the initial departure and climb, and hopefully get you up to circling height, from which you can climb to reach 10 and 25 nm MSA and enroute LSALT within the appropriate distances.

Also if it's a multi engine, you would definitely want to have considered what happens when you lose a donk and can hardly make 100fpm rate of climb, which will probably entail turning back in a safe direction to overhead in the circling area and either getting it back on the ground visually or joining an instrument approach, or climbing laboriously to a safe height while staying in the circling area boundaries (making use of all the different categories can help) and going somewhere else.
Even if you were departing somewhere with a SID, it's no good to you if you can't make the gradient with an engine out.

Firstly, I like the rule that you never take off from an airport you can't land on again. Unless you are flying RPT (and a whole lot more current than most of us), then the real take-off minima is the approach minima for that airport. Australia has relatively simple weather patterns, most of the time a 2 hour wait will yield an improvement - or a hole or a raised area of the cloud base. If we're not flying RPT its rare that we can't deal with the delay.

Secondly, once you're at the minima, the missed approach procedure may be a useful guide.

Most of the time (one hopes) the take-offs near minima are at an airfield that you are familiar with, so you can kind of replicate a VFR climb out. If its not an airport you are familiar with, then there is probably a good argument to add some safety factor to the take-off minima and spending some time thinking about it beforehand. You may also want to circle above the field so you climb out accurately on the aid to aid track, rather than converging onto the track from the runway.

Single pilot IFR has a high accident rate and take off is a high workload environment. Unless you are doing it everyday, its worth adding margin to the minima.

So, for the test, I think the answer is, depending on the airport location (ie if its Woomera, who cares?) and your local knowledge, you climb out converging onto track, follow a missed approach, follow a SID, or circle to the circling minima then continue the climb on track.

Flying an instrument approach in reverse may also get you safely to the MSA, especially if it is a straight-in approach to the reciprocal runway you are departing from.

Using the missed approach might be good too - except the missed approach is designed to be flown from overhead the aerodrome from the minimum descent altitude, which by definition won't coincide when you're departing. But still - the direction of the missed approach track will usually suggest fewer obstacles and lower terrain. A good study of the area beforehand is warranted.

The other useful thing might be the DME/GPS arrival chart - at least gives you an indication of how high you need to be to be safe as you climb away from the aerodrome.

My 10 cents' worth, FWIW.

Ted

Unless you can show compliance with a climb profile to clear obstacles (and this was introduced into the AIP long ago) then one probably ought to be climbing in the circuit to an appropriate height for the route.

I've done this for renewals and (especially) at night for my own comfort on light twins - never had anyone complain.

Thanks for the answers guys.

I guess common sense would suggest departing overhead & a good study of charts before departing into IMC. I just wanted to double check there wasn't something glaringly obvious I was missing in the Jepps.

I noticed that for NVFR you need to stay in the circling are while climbing to Lsalt, funny that there isn't anything similar set down for IMC/IFR

Climb in the circuit to the 10m lowest safe and then depart. You can't get it wrong that way. The only time I would not do this is if I was visual, or know the airfield very well. In a test, I always do the first option.

Climb to LSA within the circling area prior to departure. EG KMP to YSTW LSA 5800'....airport elevation 50'.

A DME/GPS arrival plate is also a good tool allowing the pilot to 'get on with it'. For example, the arrival may indicate there is a 1800 step at 4nm, on departure make sure you can climb to this height by that distance. It should be possible unless you have an engine failure in a piston twin, in that case you need to also be considering your escape plan.

Climbing to LSALT from overhead the aerodrome NVFR is overdone by some pilots. Heard on approach last year a Redcliffe pilot telling ATC he needed to climb to 6500 overhead YRED (7ft elev) before departing west. ATC came back saying there would be at least a 45min delay due to all of the YBBN inbound traffic and offered a lower departure altitude until he could get the pilot clear (4000ft from memory, whatever it was the pilot had a fair margin over terrain for a good distance). The pilot cancelled the clearance request and went home for the night. Flying NVFR one could consider revised LSALTs based on visual features, not just one LSALT based on a 100nm sector. But then again NVFR seems screwed up i.e. left hand circuits at night off runway 16 ay YKRY, however once one discovers approach plates they find this is a no circling area.

in that case you need to also be considering your escape plan.

.. in many places not an easy task ? For awkward places an initial climb - especially in a light twin - makes a lot of sense. Certainly not an option to have the failure after departure and then start thinking about what to do.

All goods advice here. The best advice though is don't dept if ya can't come back for a ldg due terrain or wx. The reverse use of a DGA is great if available. Circle whilst in the ct area obviously simple & effective. Another trick is to use the opposite rwy compared to yr dept trk if avail. WX conditions allowing that is.
Say yr dept trk is 180 & you have 36 avail for dept. Dept off rwy 36 & by the time you get to the circuit limit for say Cat B (2.66nm) you may very well be abv LSALT already. If rdr is avial ask for rdr MVA whilst climbing.

I've even gone the opposite way to my intended dpet trk where the LSALT is much lwr then once I reach my LSALT for my intended trk minus an allowance for the 180 turn & miles already completed turn & set course:-)It's the same as staying in the Ct in a way but ya might get visual going the other way & be able to proceed visually abv cloud.
At the end of the day simple really,don't crash!:ok:


Wmk2

Probably what is a stupid question.. but in terms of flying the reverse tracks of established IAP's such as DGA's etc for departing in IMC in terrain rich environment- what is the safety buffer against a potential collision with another aircraft doing the actual approach? I was always taught the NVFR procedure of climbing within the circuit if possible and/or confines of the aerodrome to LSALT but for IFR it was a case of the pilot calculated/Chart LSALT/MSA and intercepting that ASAP after departure.. however on departure/initial track i may add..

14 posts!

Have we decided on how to depart an airport IFR yet? :ugh:

Ummmm IFR Taxi or departure call usually gets you Traffic advice.

Unless the DGA is very azimuth specific, such as one into YBSU from MYB....which is a granite rich stuff up, you could find that the reverse of a DGA is no worse than any departure in class G.

nkand
 

If I didn't believe in the phrase "there's no such thing as a stupid question" I might have to agree with you on that ;)

With proper use of the radio there shouldn't be any increased risk of a collision with an inbound aircraft conducting the DGA. Considering most DGA's cover 360 degrees surrounding the navaid the likelihood of that happening even without a radio is quite low.

With proper communication the risk of collision is almost as unlikely as a visual departure!

No Capt, this IS Pprune - it will take 4 - 5 pages of posts to answer that!

Scary, in'it! :E

Dr :8

Who is departing a CTAF IFR inside or outside VHF coverage without making a call on both CTAF and Centre and the inverse who is inbound IFR conduction an arrival without having made those calls?

Its complete unreasonable for any charter pilot to be wasting time circling over head to an en-route lowest safe on departure when there is a perfectly safe on track alternative. Given everything an IFR pilot has at their disposal you should be fully aware of any obstacle on your departure track. There are very few strips in aus that would require more than an overhead departure to maintain a safe terrain clearance.

Even if you depart on track with a "steep" climb requirement, at 120kts you still only need 600fpm.

Another good contribution from Fathom. :hmm:

Even if you depart on track with a "steep" climb requirement, at 120kts you still only need 600fpm.

.. and what would be your advice when one quits AND there are some nasty hills around and about ?

'J Tulla' that's the biggest issue with any twin that can't out-climb the terrain on two donks never lone one during climb to LSALT. I've always believed that you fly the plane to suit the environment. A dept in CAVOK means you just get on with it but in IMC/NGT make sure you have an 'out' from the time you push up the throttles even if it means staying within gliding distance of the dept AD whilst getting to LSALT.
As for risks colliding with another A/C on say a reverse DGA..........well some good airman-ship & common sense is yr best defense, both not always exhibited sadly.


Wmk2

If the aerodrome has an instrument approach and you cannot remain visual to the MSA you would then climb within the circling area until you reach the MSA then depart from there. This guarantees you obstacle clearance for e.g Cat B aircraft 2.66nm.

If you follow DME steps, reverse DGA, SID these are all acceptable too and will cut down time.

If you are flying a twin you must consider on departure whether you can either remain visual and land, or climb on one engine then carry out an instrument approach.

In terms of other traffic who are in IMC or on the approach, since you would have contacted center for traffic info they would have passed this on to you. Plus your broadcast on CTAF will also confirm this.

Eocvictim,

I agree with that statement you made! I dont see why in the vast majority of airports around this country anyways anything more then an overhead departure is necessary.. sure theyre are exceptions but even then its not like we face issues to the extent that an airport eg NZQN has...

ATSB Report
 

Controlled Flight Into Terrain during enroute climb!

Pilot was not familar with the area.

There were 8 people on board.

1986 - PA31 - Cairns

A sobering reminder, Capt Fathom.
I had the unwelcome job of winching emergency response people in and out of the site of that one. If they'd had another 50 ft of altitude, they'd have gone blithely on their way none the wiser.

A sobering reminder that idiots will probably kill themselves. Off 15 at CNS, right turn into cloud and run into a hill? Der.

Had he read a thread such as this before doing that, he might be alive today.

With all due respect to the victims, he need not have read a thread like this but simply look out the apartment window at some stage during his holiday. He might have been unfamiliar with the aerodrome, but surely he noticed those bloody big hills surrounding the city in the days leading up to the departure.

When I completed my initial IR training back in 1984 I asked my trainer, who was a well known and respected pilot this exact same question. I got a 5 minute chat and that was it. I had under 1000hrs at the time. At no time was this covered during my training, and by the look of this thread nor does it appear to be the case today.

Some will say use common sense, however it shouldn't be left up to that, this is something that should be well covered, including your options in the event of an engine out. Above 5700kg this is all covered by 20.7.1b (or whatever!) and the operator is required to cover all the likely en-route scenarios etc. Light twins etc aren't and are usually flown by pilots with minimal experience and it shouldn't be left to luck or common sense, but covered by good briefings on how to best plan for these situations etc.

I recognise a lot of posters here (not personally) who generally have >5700kg jet or heavy RPT turbo-prop time and have their experience to fall back on. Most new twin IFR drivers don't.

I'd held instrument ratings for years in single engine fixed wing and helicopters and thought I knew a fair bit about things, but it took a posting to Caribous to smarten my thinking up about the 'you're on your own' style limbo-land that is the IFR uncontrolled aerodrome departure in something that's often lucky to make 100 fpm with an engine out.
Not only that, but the other side of the coin which is what to do when you've left LSALT or MSA on an instrument approach and can't make the missed approach gradient with an engine out.

The blanket statement that you're responsible for terrain clearance on departure until established at or above LSALT is, well, a blanket, and hidden below its bland surface is a massive can of worms! Mixing metaphors there, but yes, the poor old IFR light twin driver has one of the trickiest jobs when it comes to discharging his or her responsibilities about missing the ground.

Hmmmmm! Don't know where you guys did your initial CIR or where you do your renewals, but I gotta say that this subject was well covered in my initial training and has been revisited at each of my 26 renewals. Something I think about on every IFR departure! I have been into most of the licenced aerodromes in Qld and can't think of any where this poses a great challenge.

eg How do you depart Innisfail for Mareeba - MSA is 6500 due to Qld's highest mountain?

Dr :8

PS: As for departing 15 at YBCS on a visual departure clearance with a right hand turn and climb into cloud - well, what can be said! There is a really obvious reason why the usual SID is an immediate left turn and climb out over the sea.

The problem with light twins is that, just the same as heavies, you can't wing it with qualitative waffle.

Either you do quantitative sums based on quantitative terrain and cultural data/flight test validated performance data .. or you're having yourself on.

I've spent a significant part of my engineering working life doing just that for heavies. When I fly lighties, I know I don't have the data available to do the same sort of thing .. so I go conservatively so that I know I have an out.

When the nonsense arrived in the AIP about light twin drivers making sure that they can get out after a failure, I argued until I was black and blue in the face with the examiner who sponsored the amendment. No joy .. like talking to a brick wall. Nice guy, though.

Guess the fun will start when the toss is argued at a coronial and then in the higher courts for damages.

AOTW,
Pining for the good ol' days are we?
Youse Caribou guys had two engines. Looxury!
Us real men wot drive CT4s only have one.
Imagine the thrill of rocketting luft-wards at sometimes up to 300FPM trying to make the 6,200FT LSALT on the way to Scone.

And with the rain dripping in through the gaps in the canopy seal too mate ... at least the engine failure case is easy to consider - we're goin' down!