I am sure most companies will let you go up in a Baron/Cessna 310 for a jolly to log that 1 hour of I/F for currency purposes!!!

So if one flies between cloud layers does that get logged as instrument time?

My point was that if they don't give you the required ICUS, Dual, or Sim time and you haven't met recency requirements you can't fly as captain of an IFR flight. If you dodgy the numbers you'll be hung out to dry if there is an accident, or preferably if CASA pick you up before an accident. It is not a jolly it is a requirement that it appears many GA companies pay lip service too if the comments on this thread are anything to go by.

Yes I have seen it done in GA by a reputable firm.

FDG135

You assume it's lack of knowledge, but rather lack of understanding and respect, on your behalf. The point was that the Metro is quite a good example of an aircraft that needs good IF skills to operate correctly. I believe, anyone who is current on a Metro, is MORE than IF current.

I do not see your motive to quote this point, other than demonstrating your skill to quote people on a forum, and attack people who wont/cant snot you back for lack of respect. I don't and wont qualify myself here, and nor should anybody else.

Back on topic...The point is line drivers need to 'create' enough IF time to remain current, rather than the fuss of a day offline in the sim. It has no effect on one's ability to fly safely.

L/dog.

Whoa, those last two comments leave me speachless.

Leatherdog you might want to have a look at a few court cases involving accidents before you start sprouting off 'practical' interpretations of aviation law. If you fly a metro around the NT in the dry and are logging IF time without a hood that is faking your logbook; noone is going to care about 'respect' they will just look at the CAO and say well this guy has been faking IF time.

Yeah and neither is the prosecution when you stand trial!! If you Parker pen your logbook, then prang an aeroplane and they get a whiff of fake logbook you will be taken to the cleaners.

It is just some BS that some operators make up. Never heard of line pilots talk about it but I have heard a Chief Pilot bring it up during interviews or when looking at resumes. But remember like every requirement in aviation that are all subject to change and are inversely proportional to the total time of the candidates on offer. These type of requirements go out the window if they are struggling to crew aeroplanes. It's all kinda amusing really listening to people berate you one year for having not enough of this or that only to see them hire a guy with 150 hours straight out of flight school a year later!!

There are some dead people who thought that a dark night departure from a remote location could easily be done visually.
At Alice Springs many years ago two pilots were taking off at night and there was a power cut shortly after they lifted off. The runway lights and all the town lights instantly went out. They crashed and died.
When that last runway light is behind you on a dark night with no other lights in the area, conditions are definitely IMC.
It has been proven the hard way many times.

Yes, this gets done every year - but I STILL admit I haven't got my head around it all. The questions I still hear equally convincing and opposing answers to:

- Is time in IMC always loggable as IF (as has been stated)? I go with no, as, for example, flying in 2km visibility 10ft below overcast is IMC, but is not flying by *sole* reference to instruments, and I don't log this. And I consider IMC to be less-than-VMC, NOT necessarily zero-vis.

- Conversely, is flying into the "black hole" under the NVFR on a CAVOK night considered IF? It's the reverse of the above - clearly not IMC, but does seem to satisfy the "sole reference to instruments" bit. I never log any IF under the NVFR, just to be on the safe side (and cause I rarely fly NVFR). I know people will yell "NO YOU CAN'T, I ALREADY SAID THAT!!!!" - but what's the legal basis for this? We can obviously log IF time under the VFR under the hood (with safety pilot obviously) - so what's different legally about NVFR with absolutely no visual reference?

I know this has been discussed to death over many threads, but I still haven't seen a massively conclusive argument either way.

Although anybody who's said "I generally fly my departures with reference to instruments, not the horizon, so I always log some IF" on a CAVOK day should really go and look up the definition of IF - and it kind of amazes me they actually justify it to themselves to log this.

At the risk of a flaming on here I tend to agree with you. The only time you are really looking out the window in a Metro is on Final and during the takeoff/Landing roll. The rest of the time is on the instruments. That being said, you still have some outside reference i.e blue up, brown down out of the minute side windows and a few other clues here and there. You realize how much you do get visual reference from these sources when you fly a black hole approach in a Metro. IMO at night in a Metro without a moon it may as well be IF time as you would not know if you were in cloud until the strobes and beacons reflected off it.

Unfortunately while most agree that if you don't have a horizon at night to establish a visual reference it should be IF time, someone can fly VFR legally in the same conditions without an instrument rating.

In two crew just call I'm eyes in and the PNF can be a safety Pilot while you legally don the foggles and clock up some IF time for currency purposes.

Food for thought.

Bushy, as always spot on with your answer.

Perhaps you may like to refresh the PPrune experts about the C210 that crashed at Alice in 1989.

err no.:rolleyes: One would have to have viz <5000m and/or cloud.

I will have a go at explaining the 210 prang at Alice. I was there, I heard certain things and for many years I have had a fixed understanding in my mind.

It was a 210, Nack and Jack and Air, Coon Air to the rest of us. Kept themselves to themselves mostly. Had a hangar next to the AeroClub.

Circumstances were that a new pilot needed the three take-offs and landings, the senior pilot was to conduct this.

The tower was operating and a clearance for take-off Left circuit was given.

(left circuit off 12 at Alice at night is possible, and safe but not what was generally expected)

The 210 started a right turn, then was asked to confirm left circuit. At that moment the lights went out, as Bushy says Strip and Town.

A Lear was on short final fo 12 and the Tower person was looking for that while pulling a handle for the emergency lighting. Looked for the 210 and it was gone!

anyone got the adsb link to that event?

Bombsgone.....good on you mate, you're spot on! guys and gals please read the regs.

When there are insufficient visual indications to safely control the aeroplane visually,then it is necessary to fly by reference to the instruments. That is IFR flight and should be logged as such, because it is. Whether the cause is cloud, haze, fog or just a lack of any lights,
definition or contrast, the effect is the same. (kennedy?)
I remember being told that jet airliers had such a high nose attitude on takeoff and climb that they always logged IFR due to the lack of a visual horizon.
On the other hand I remember an instructor in England telling me that you don't need a horizon for visual flight if you could see the ground below you. (they did a lot of that in the sixties). Interpretations are many, and our regulation is too often vague on these matters. Despite the legal hairsplitting and skullduggery that sometimes occurs, if you do not have sufficient visual idications you fly by reference to icstruments, and it's IFR.

Bushy, I completely agree that at certain attitudes/flight conditions in many different aircraft (not just big jets), the aircraft is best flown by reference to instruments, regardless of weather conditions. When visual traffic avoidance is not an issue, I fly all my IFR departures this way, IMC or not, and I'm only flying piston twins.

I cannot possibly agree though, that any of this type of flight, flown in VMC, can be logged as IF. A specific question about the logging of *IF* (not "IFR" or "IMC") frequently turns into a discussion of the merits of flying certain types primarily on instruments - and while this may be true, and a valid discussion, it's got nothing to do with the legal logging of Instrument Time.

I'm no airline pilot - but anybody logging IF on departure due to a "high nose attitude" is REALLY pushing it.

Bushy you are entirely right to bring up the catastrophic results of using visual reference to set attitudes at night. I met a pilot a few years ago who had been taught to use the lights of Sydney as an attitude reference at night! If I set an attitude at night without looking at the AI my instructor would jump down my throat. The only exception as someone pointed out earlier is short finals.

Night flight where you navigate by visual references or use them for orientation does not count as Instrument flight in accordance with the rules.

Edit: What Zapp said.

So what do you want the pilots to do.....start a stopwatch every time they go into cloud and stop it when they exit. Over a 8 hour flight I can tell you that s*#t is not going to happen. I think 0.2 every sector is fair.

as the Goblin said....
 

Moonless night in a metro, if you are looking at anything other than the primary instruments, you will be wondering all over the place. No matter how well you think you have the bastard trimmed up, it'll always gently roll or pitch or if shes really bent...do both!! We still never logged it as IF time but it was always a hot topic. Personally and many freight doggies agree, it should be IF time...all you who disagree need to actually try it sometime.

Is NVMC legal for RPT ops?