Why do many "Airline" training organisations insist on flying such wide circuits?
 

As frustrating as it is for other circuit users, I can only assume that there is a good reason why circuits are taught this way?

Im not having a go at the schools, just trying to understand their reasoning.

Take longer, learn less, make more money? What other reasons?

If only I knew.....

When instructing a few years back I was following an aircraft from one of these organisations in the circuit one morning. Sitting alongside me was a Widebody Skipper who was getting a bit of currency in a lighty.

As our downwind following the preceding aircraft reached some ridiculous distance, he turned to me and commented "I fly smaller bloody circuits in a 767"!

But then this same training organisation also forbid intersection takeoff's because "that's not what airlines do." Clearly the person who wrote the SOP's has never been to any major airport in the world!:ugh:

I did my early training at Wellington International... we had to fly massive massive circuits so the neighbours don't cry about it. I've always had to overcome instinct to fly tight circuits at other aerodromes.

If they're THAT big, drop inside them and land. When the inevitable complaint comes over the radio you can reply: "Oh!, I'm sorry - I thought you had departed the circuit on some sort of navigation exercise!"

Agreed. Have seen it done and have done it myself, but usually would ask ATC first.

"Tower, can we turn inside the 747 / wide circuit" or words to that effect usually do the job. If the controller then feels they are a bit wide, they will ask them to tighten it up. It's not always something you have to persist with unless the circuit is quite busy and they need to fit in their 8 aircraft per side.

It's because the instructor doesn't ask the student to assess their spacing, or if they do, don't ask them what they are going to do about it if it looks all wrong.:ugh:

Seriously guys, when someone says "turning base behind the aircraft on ridiculously long final", THERE'S SOMETHING WRONG!

F:mad:ck em. They want to buy cheap next to the airport!
How loud is an O-320 at 1000' anyway???:rolleyes:

Complaints like that should attract a set of low level circuits!

Gee I guess none of you guys ever struggled early solo on downwind?

The airport I work at has a few schools that would fit this category and they generally aren't too bad. More often than not it depends on what level the student is at. From my days of instructing I recall most early circuit lessons the students struggled to get the pre landing checks done and the radio call on downwind completed (along with trying to fly the aeroplane). Whilst I like to keep it tight and would prompt along those lines, if I took over all the time how does the student learn? It was generally a non issue after a few lessons but still they can be busy early solo.

From an ATC perspective rarely will we tell you how to fly unless we specifically need it (ie Helicopter traffic inside the fixed wing circuit or about to leave the CTR).

Saying something can help, but a "can we tighten it up" has more effect than "am I following a 747 out there".

From my days instructing, I would do the radio and checks for them, until they had the circuit OK - then increase the workload as gradually as they could handle it.

As did I. The point I was trying to make is that early on they are busy doing all that stuff. Some of the closest circuits I see (and I see a lot every day) are the solo "airline" students. They aren't always the guilty ones, just the easiest target.

Well they aren't ready to go solo then are they?

How wide are we talking? more than a mile?

They sometimes fly seriously wide , I think I could do two circuits or close to that by the time they come in

Because none of their instructors have had a real engine failure in a single yet..

Easy - just ask for a glide or short approach and drop inside them. You'll catch them back up in 2-3 circuits, but it's all good - it's about SA and managing your own positioning. Or ask ATC for an opposite circuit. Don't get frustrated - turn it into a lesson that's more than a takeoff, 4 left (or right) turns and a landing.

I've seen some ome in on a 2-3 mile final from the circuit, I just ask for the opposite direction to what they're using at the time.

Some of the a/c being used have a nice engine out quality and glide a long way further than a 172 does.......and I can imagine that they could be the cause of your stress.

They could introduce sideslip into every cct and help you out! :ok:

unfortunately most of the ones I have seen are in 172s or Grobs.

They don't glide to well.

Large ccts because:

1. The instructor is too busy listening to his/her own voice and thinking the student needs to have some time to listen. Talk on the ground. Instruct in the air! Practice approach and landings when it's time to practice approach and landings. Practice straight and level away from the circuit. If you, as an instructor, have something important to say, make a full stop and talk on the taxi back to the threshold.

2. The student thinks he/she needs to have a long, stabilised approach for a good landing or he/she is just enjoying the view. What a waste of money!

Pretty frustrating at CN, especially if you are flying a Pitts or something similar. Overtaking rarely allowed and LL cts no longer permitted :ugh: not a lot of fun to be stuck behind warriors, 172s and the odd Grob flying circuits big enough to warrant an alternate.