Busting airspace
 

Just a reminder gang, that we are all on the same team.

Had a lighty bust airspace today, no response to calls on APP/TWR/Area freqs, but s/he obviously realised their mistake as, after heading straight for us for 15nm, they suddenly did a dirty dart east about 3nm north of the airfield. Whether they heard a call and finally clicked that it was them being chased, or just regained their bearings and headed off in the right direction doesn't really matter. They still spent over 10 mins and 25 track miles in CTA without a clearance and descended from A045 to A025 (non verified).

We tracked them down when they landed at a nearby GAAP airfield and asked the TWR there to give them our phone number and ask them to call us. No call. As we have their callsign, I can't understand why they wouldn't call? If they did, we would be able to have a conversation about why they busted airspace (emergency/ignorance/nav mistake etc) and provide any information needed to help them avoid doing it again.

We still have to file paperwork on VCAs (for stats) but, after a discussion where we are satisfied that it was a genuine error which is unlikely to recur due to the education process, we can annotate that to the paperwork so that no further action is required. Ignoring us, means a "please explain" from CASA and a little black mark against your name (they add up). Plus, it's just rude.

It's not an "out to get you mentality" - it's a safety issue. Other acft were moved around to avoid an unpredictable track and unverified levels. So, please, if it was you - pick up the phone and let's deal with it so it doesn't happen again. We usually find you in the end anyway.....:=

Spot on RAAFASA

Well worth owning up if you realise you bust CTA, let the controller know what level you're flying at and where you need to get to, so they can stop having to reroute traffic and know that you're on frequency and not going to create any further problems.

Sometimes controllers get a bit narky about it (fair enough), but all they really care about is actually knowing where you 'think' you're going and can get on with handling the rest of their traffic; their job is tough enough without you pretending you didn't do anything wrong.

I will reproduce your post on our forum it may have been one of us.

The mentality of this thread is one of 'Oh, the did not mean it'. That is not the aim of compulsory reporting. When a mistake is made, it MUST be reported so that information can be gathered as to why. Is Raafasa sure theat the pilot was not having a heart attack? Sure that the pilot was not using Jepps that were not accurate (examples if you want)? Sure that Osama and co were not hijacking his bus? So on and so on. Reporting is not an 'I gotcha!!!!!' but is afety process designed to make the entire industry a place less likely to cause an aluminum shower.

Tobzalp, re-read para 4, 1st line of my initial post. Yes, of course we still report all VCAs, it's just that if we have spoken to the pilot and are satisfied with the outcome of the conversation, we can annotate that on the report. Helps with the whole investigation aspect.

RAAFASA very valid point. I have a question though;

I have fortunately not busted airspace without a clearance as of yet however I am curious to know the leniency between you and your fellow controllers before you hop on the radio and track down the intruder.

I do my best at all times to maintain spatial awareness of airspaces, but if I say clip a step on descent or infringe on CTA in the vicinity of the boundary should I expect a VCA or just a kindly reminder?

Now I understand every situation is unique and there are many variables, but I am curious to know. Not so I can push the rules but if I ever find myself in a situation like above, what would you as a controller appreciate the pilot doing? Letting you guys know or expediting the area unannounced?

FL170

I'm suprised they didn't turn off their transponder lol. :}

If you did it, own up. You will learn a great deal of knowledge from ATC - because clearly they dont know how the system works. It's not hard for the controllers to pick up their phone and call the local GAAP airport to get a rego. :uhoh:

I guess if you really stuffed up, and you want to hide it, just use your nemesis rego when you call inbound to the GAAP LOL!

RAAFASA

Isn't it automatically VCA paperwork from CASA? A guy in one of my planes intruded 1 mile, was called up, he answered, apologised and exited immediately. He got paperwork from ASA, that said that the incident posed no threat or risk of collision, but please would he provide feedback to help make the system safer or something like that, which he did.. and then the CASA please explain paper followed just behind...

To commit a VCA is forgivable. To not ring back after being asked by ATC is not. This is probably just the sort of pilot who would operate in a CTAF without a radio or refuse to make calls (or listen) because they don't need to.

If that's his/her atttitude, throw the book at them. I don't need pilots like that sharing terminal airspace with me. :*

Slight thread drift, but along the same lines... this is more regarding listening out when in the vicinity of an uncontrolled aerodrome.

Descending into aerodrome X the other day, OCTA in and out of IMC. Made a call on the area frequency and on CTAF well in advance and all of a sudden someone popped up on TCAS (thank god they atleast had transponder on). Numerous attempts were made to contact the aircraft but no relpies came back. Spoke to BN Cen but they couldn't see anyone as we were fading from radar coverage. The aircraft was cruising at a non vfr level above 5000' right at the base of the cloud. We levelled off, passed the traffic and descended and were able to sight the aircraft type once visual. Finally after we metioned the aircraft type in our calls did old mate pipe up and say who he was. Turns out he was on frequency and claims he didn't hear any of our numerous calls. Was off with the fairies and didn't give a sh%t about what was going on around him:ugh:

Very dangerous predicament to be in, and total lack of airmanship on old mates behalf. The sort of bloke who probably would fly through CTA without even knowing it.

Almost was a silver lining to that cloud...

Alternatively, turn off your transponder, head for the trees, and high tail it out of Dodge! :E

I hope the violator will be caught and penalised harshly. Any VCA in a PPL or CPL flight test is an instant fail. Those who commit VCAs should have their license suspended and be required to resit a checkride with a CASA FOI. That should be a good deterrent.

FL170 and Cleared to Reenter - We do allow for nav tolerances, so clipping a corner by a mile or 2 is usually just monitored, not "tracked down" so to speak, although we will broadcast on any relevant frequencies. Occasionally you do get someone who is very, very lost (once had a PA28 who landed at TVL without a single contact with any control agency .... he was aiming for the GAAP at Ayr! Had another guy who actually did call for a clearance, giving his position as 10nm sth of TWB, problem was, he was actually 10nm sth of AMB and had been in CTA for the previous 15nm)

In the latter case, he was trying to do the right thing, was just very lost. We helped him find some easy to spot landmarks from his VTC so he could re-orient and organised further assistance from Brisbane radar to keep him clear of BN CTA on his way to MC, as he was unfamiliar and a little shaken. He called us after landing at MC to say thanks and to apologise and we had a great chat about the local airspace and procedures. Paperwork was still filed, but we annotated that we had had an in depth debrief with the pilot. I don't know what CASA's actions were following that. But I was satisfied with his attitude and the fact that it was a genuine mistake that he would be determined to avoid making again!

As far as grumpy controllers.... yes, there are some. But most of us are very aware of the danger of "intimidating" a lost and possibly distressed pilot. No matter how pi$$ed off I am (and regardless of what I might say to my peers off mike) on the radio, I stay calm and try to help if necessary, once the acft is safely on the ground, that's when we usually get the message passed that they need to give us a call, no need to add another worry while they're trying to fly.

But to answer your questions, any VCA is a reportable occurence (for statistical reasons even if no other action is taken) and, personally, I would much prefer you to 'fess up and advise your intentions, rather than just slink away. A clearance through may very well be available to you, so you might as well get one ;), especially if you are landing nearby and we will be able to "track you down" easily anyway! And more seriously, if your inadvertent VCA has created a conflict, knowing that you are on frequency makes it easier to resolve through mutual traffic, avoidance instructions etc.

Thanks for asking!

Someone a few weeks back busted CTA at Silvan reservoir by 400ft, stupid clown identified himself THEN turned his transponder off, to which he was told in no uncertain terms to turn it back on afaik by Melb radar. Made me chuckle.

Of course everyone knows when you bust cta and get caught you head to the nearest CTAF, throw in a few circuits then leave the ctaf just above stall speed so as to make atv think it's a different aircraft.

Thanks for that RAAFASA. Its great to be able to actively discuss such a matter with a controller.

eeper--I've heard of some clowns scooting around in the BK T/A above charlie LL, then realising what they have done have decided to switch off their XPDR and duck down to Camden to wait it out. It is this mentality of not wanting to learn from the mistake and just trying to get away from it that will get themselves in a hairy situation.

Don't worry though, ATC didn't pick up their rego but someone did ;)

Oh Forky you can not be serious. It isn't a funny subject when there are nearly 1200 VCA's a year in this country.
We are doing something wrong people!!!!

I think we are missing the point here. Sure it's about education but we are dealing with humans here not machines, airmanship as we have talked about amongst these pages over the years is slipping, this is just one result of same.
This guy whom did a 'runner' did so thru one human reaction........'fight or flight' (pun not intended) so he fled the scene purely to save his bacon, self preservation. We've probably all done it sometime in our lives(fled the scene, not from a flying point of view) might have been from a possible fight with the school yard bully or road rage now which is rife in our community.
Like rwy incursions we will always get them & there's not a damn thing we can do about it to stop it completely other than thru eductaion & the teaching of airmanship.
I feel that the RAAF boys have gone about the education process thru here in a very approachable way, tnxs guys you've put the human element back into education before the 'big stick' concept.
I hope this particular pilot owns up, his airmahsip to do so will take a huge leap fwd.

Wmk2

d.n.s.

Good point about CTA steps around Brisbane. I have found the Jepps database is VERY wrong to the North and West. I have not studdied every point on the charts, but there could be more errors.

When a major landmark is right between two step lines on eiether the map or GPS and its on the line on the other, in flight you can be unsure as to which side is which. Typing this now I am not sure which way around the error is.

What alerted me lately is the TSO'd GNS530W map is exactly the same. Maleny VOR and Kilcoy NDB are classic giveaways. The lines NW of MC also are wrong.

I have photographed and detailed a report to the Jepp folk and an investigation is under way. This could be part of the problem around Brisbane as some landmarlks V the map are not always easy, especially for visitors. So you rely on the airspace rings to confirm where you are relative to the map and ground. When the rings are so far out if you overlay one on the other it is like onions thrown on the BBQ :uhoh:.

So I do understand partly why you get 4 or 5 a day.

Other problem is ALT ENCODERS...... pumping out a higher Altitude than the a/c is at. I have seen that myself when an encoder started playing up.

J:ok:

Too right Jabawocky :ok:

"Oh no sir, I was maintaining 1000' AGL, so my transponder must have been misbehaving. I'm so sorry, I will get it looked at ASAP"

What can AirSerivces do to prove that wrong? Are you still required to submit reports?

I take it you have never been lost then? :ugh:

We'll if you've gotten that lost & somewhere in the vicinity of CTA chances are your already on radar so why not ask for help? :confused:

VCA's will happen. The other day I listened to a check and training captain in a metro bust straight into Sydney off the end of the YSBK zone due to being distracted. It can happen to anyone no matter how experienced.

I'm no proponent of VCAs but taking such severe action (license suspension) is retarded. All it would lead to is more 'transponder off dive bomb shenanigans' from people who now have something worthwhile to fear, not just a friendly letter from CASA.

I once attempted to enter cta with a non operational mode-c ;coming into cta for maintenance on it) for which I received a letter for. The controller warned me that it would go on record that I tried to enter cta knowingly with a non-operational mode-c. Had I said that mode-c was "not fitted" nothing would have come of it.

Receiving a letter from CASA is not that bad for an offence just as long as they don't keep appearing in your mailbox. Thinking about it though they sent my letter to me ad the operator so in theory they don't know who was driving at the time, would have to retrospectively check back to find out.

eeper23

Not sure what they can do about dicky encoders, I have not been busted like that, however I had a faulty one once, it randomly spat out an altitude many thousands higher at times, was asked to MODE A it and they manually followed my ALT by checking with me. No problem but I can imagine they can not handle too many of those at once. I did fix it quick smart!

I do know of others..... but if you do not listen on the right freq you may never know!:ooh:
J

get a tablet PC or other little gadget with the AirNav moving map software and you can see your position on the VTC's and other maps in flight, perfect when it comes to navigating complex airspace as long as you can read a map :}

Encoders go dicky & we accept your word that you're however high you say you are - no further action taken other than to maybe ask you to only squawk alpha if it's bothering us.

eep, slight problem with your plan in that we assume you're at the level you say you're at & ignore you, continuing the risk of collision. Just own up, it's safer for all concerned. I'm far more interested in getting you where you want to go safely than punishing you. I'm guessing CASA only takes the full negative attitude to repeat offenders.

XXX, next time make a phone call first or indicate on your flight plan what the story is. Also tell the controller on first contact.

Blender, nothing gives me the squirts more than "flying down the line" - I can't tell you're going to turn instead of penetrating. Give yourself a bit of leeway & keep everyone happy :ok:

LP
I think Plankie is suggesting with a correct map and GPS cursor you can and should therefore fly in certainty around steps and not on them. I am sure that was his intent.:ok:

As for the Tablet..... yep I use one too, and I have the VTC's and as pointed out its more reliable around Brisbane than the Jepp database, but I do not use it for airspace avoidance, thats not the way to do things. A $20K TSO146 GPS and I can noot trust the database :ugh:...... but the good Jepp folk are looking into it.

Makes me think IFR is the way to go.....even for a short flight!;)

If your planned route takes you near CTA, or if you are unfamiliar and not entirely sure - just give the relevant freq a call and let them know you are there.

A couple of locals around here regularly call up (no FPL) just say where they are, where they are going and what level. We can then assign a code or even just use "squawk ident" to identify them and either give them a clearance or reassure them that their planned track/alt will keep them clear of CTA and call again if they need higher or diversions left/right of track. Takes a minute of your time and helps with our air picture (traffic OCTA for acft leaving etc)

We're here to provide a service. If clearance through CTA is not available, there has to be a bloody good reason for it, we're not allowed to just pick and choose who gets in and who doesn't it. Like I said at the start of this thread - we are all on the same team - you need to get somewhere - I want to ensure you and everyone else in the sky gets there safely and as expeditiously as possible.

There is no need to "run and hide". Jokes aside, never turn your transponder off, it's insane to think you would rather risk conflicting with someone than get a letter from CASA!

:D:D:D

Exactly!

hey was doing engine data logging in someone elses a/c today.....some know whose now :suspect: and you blokes were on duty....... on a Saturday Arv.....whats up with that?

Love your work overe there at YAMB :ok:

Apologies to Plankie - I wasn't directing my comments specifically at him, just those who like to run along the boundaries of active firing areas & such. They clearly know exactly where they are but I don't know that & get distracted making broadcasts to alert them.

Wait till they hear/feel a big blast close by :eek:

They will get the message.........:E

Wide Bay is a classic for that!:} They play with some good sh!t at times!

The plank way is the safe way if you want to be sure. Have a guaranteed current map on your lap and set the cursor if you have one to the big airport, say brisvegas in this instance and use the dme circles on brizzy to confirm distances, you just can't trust the airspace rings even in the $20k units as Jaba knows.

Don't kid yourself!

Dr :8

No that's not the answer! That's the problem.

People need to do some preflight preparation, get their heads out of the cockpit and their gadgets, and not be lazy so-in-so's !

Dont quite agree Fathom, yes do exactly as you say, but enhance the situation with quick and easy VALIDATION of your ops relative to your proper planning.

J:ok:

I'm with LP here.
Why fly right along the CTA step?:confused:
Shouldn't you add a tolerence for tracking error?
It seems like some pilots treat their GPS's as infallible.
The scary busts are over live firing areas eg Greenbank/Canungra/Pucka.
We [ATC] aren't out to get you just trying to keep everyone safe.
Usually when we see someone closing on CTA we call up to warn you first.
Lots of times no reply from the aircraft but they do a sudden turn away from CTA.
Win/win.:ok:

G'day RAAFASA. How's the folks at Morton?

CD

Correct amberdale.
Refer AIP ENR 1.1 19.11 Pg38

Shouldn't ever be flying "down the line" because you're already inside the allowable tolerance.