Worth the repetition -beautifully spoken :ok:

Any one know the exact rules that are to be followed as part of an instructor rating with respect to mutual flying. Is there a reference in the legislation somewhere? Wanted to make sure there isn't any forgery in my log book?

Several references:

CAO 40.1.7 Sections 4.1A, 4.1B & Appendix 1 Section 2.4
CAO 40.3.7 Sections 2.1& 4.2.2
Civil Aviation Safety Authority - Pilot Log Books

"Mutual Instructor Flying Involves two pilots who are qualified on type, flying together for mutual practice on a flying instructor course. One designated pilot may log time in command and the other student instructor may log time as co-pilot. This flight time may be included in the Grand Total Hours."

Anyone know CASAs latest hang out up North. Heard they have been doing the rounds. Any major targets on top of this logbook forging??

Flew with a guy who claimed he had 5000+ hours(flew like he had 5), he lasted about 2 weeks before being asked to move on.

It came to light that he had forged his logbook, so he left aus. Last I heard he had crashed and burned killing 3 people.

An obvious lesson to anyone doing this..

...and to people who hear about this type of thing.
There is a fine line between being a dog and reporting dishonest practice. There is also a fine line between right and wrong. If more dodgy stuff is reported to CASA, accidents may be prevented. If not, at least you tried to do the right thing. You may distrust the regulator and that is probably justified. However, without information, they cannot begin to know where to investigate.

Spoken, sadly, as a true ex-government operative :hmm:

FIR Mutual flying time
 

Thanks unhinged,

The regulations quoted don't relly apply to log book but rather the 20hr mutual component, however the CASA website clearly states what mutual flying should be logged as.

Thanks again,

JJ

Firstly just how far back were they checking these logbooks or was it just a case of handing over every logbook the pilot had and CASA randomly picking an entry? I know quite a few who have 3 or 4 logbooks! You'd think it would be no mean feat to pick an entry from say 13th June 1992 for example and pulling up the records for the flights.

Also I thought when operators had their yearly audits the company pilots logbooks were routinely checked for discrepancies, anomalies etc.

There was a major investigation a couple of years ago regarding a certain C&T guy which saw many pilots losing their logbooks for about a week and then having to explain each and every flight they did with said C & T guy. From all reports that was not a pleasant experience at all considering 99% of them had done nothing wrong!

Alice
From all reports that was not a pleasant experience at all considering 99% of them had done nothing wrong!

So why did 99% of them feel the need to lose their logbooks??

cficare,

I meant that these guys/gals had to surrender their logbooks to the investigators for about a week! Why I didn't phrase it that way to start with is beyond me!! :ugh:

Thanks Alice....makes sense now!!

Could be that the majority had not filled out their logbooks for a loooong time. I know where i work there are quite a few that haven't updated theirs in quite a while!!

I do mine at the end of each month. I've let it go in the past and its not a fun excercise catching up.

I once worked with a chap who was meticulous with his paperwork. He would sign the MR without fail when he started flying and fill in his logbook everyday when he got home.

He was doing his CP interview when they (CASA) started to check his logbook against the MR's, they found major discrepencies in the records. He was shocked, they were getting all excited because of the great service to aviation safety they were conducting, having caught him out.

He was perplexed at the discrepencies and decided to cross reference to the spraying records, (ag pilot) to discover that during the night season he was signing the MR when he started his shift e.g. 10pm 1 Jan and filling his logbook when he finished his shift the next day on 2 Jan. Another source of discrepency is this; when signing the MR you are only certifying that you have conducted a daily inspection on the aircraft, in fact any pilot endorsed on type, LAME licenced on type or AME with MA on type can conduct the daily inspection and sign the MR certifying this. So if you finish for the day and another pilot flies the same aircraft that day, they are not required to sign the MR as the DAILY inspection has already been conducted and certified in the MR. You are NOT certifying a preflight.

Of course the over-zealous inspectors were none too happy when thier great fraud discovery turned out to be nothing.:ugh:


I have also worked with people who logged a lot more than they flew. It always catches up. Firstly they give the impression of being of a very low standard for their 'experience' and eventually when it comes out what they are doing, it costs them any bit of cred they had left.:yuk:

I was surprised to bump into a fellow at a CASA Heavy Aircraft Perfomrnace seminar in the late 90's, whom I had worked with in the 80's. He, then, was quite open about the Parker Pen hours.

When at the seminar, he was employed as an FOI at a major GAAP. :eek:

soseg, dual flying as per the defintion section of the CAR's is 'for the purpose of receiving flying training from a person who is authorised by these Regulations to give the training'.

In my dealings with habitual liars and cheats they don't experience guilt

CASA also Cross-checks Other Docs

It's not just logbooks and M/R's. At our last flight school inspection by a CASA FOI, (early 2009), both instructors were asked to match up M/R times to Logbook times to student record sheets to daily flight sheets.

They were all OK, except that they didn't always match at the M/R end, because it depended on whether that aircraft had been flown by another pilot on the same day, but in respect of the logbook to DFS to SRS they did. In the case of the M/R daily 'total' - this was broken down by checking the flight record sheets of/in each aircraft - which show all flights seperately.

happy days,

Log book Integrity
 

If a person has forged his / her log book they must know it themselves. This would show a lack of integrity and non suitability for any flying role in the aviation industry.


Tmb

You got it, it's an old joke referring to flight time that exists only in the form of a pen entry in the logbook, i.e., no flight actually took place. It's possibly less obvious now that Bic biros aren't as common as they once were.

And yes, "dual" is something you do with an instructor, when you are in the right hand seat with another PPL, you are a passenger regardless of whether you manipulate the controls or not.

Tmbstory, do you really think thos that 'Parker'their logbooks care about that??? Many operators do audit their pilot logbooks. I have known pilots to add in considderable flight time after they left one operator and before they started with another one, all to get those minimum hours. Bstrds.