Is it legal to carry extra Avgas in a jerry can?
 

Just wondering if a couple of jerry cans (of course properly secured and ventilated to avoid pressure build-up) in the baggage compartment for that long outback sector where there's no fuel at any of the en route strips, would be considered legal in this country?

Not such a silly question.

If it's PVT ops, no problem.

edit: hmmm, sarcastic reply prior to mine has been deleted!

Peter Fanelli wrote: I do, mate, because I couldn't find a thread here or a reference in the CAO/CAR's.

Maybe you can help with a reference to the regulations?! :rolleyes:

CASR 92.175 Goods carried by private operators
Subparts 92.B and 92.C do not apply to the carriage of dangerous
goods by an aircraft operated by an operator engaged in private (noncommercial)
operations if:
(a) the aircraft is operating in Australian territory and:
(i) is unpressurised; and
(ii) has an approved passenger seat configuration of less than
10 seats; and
(b) the goods:
(i) are in a proper condition for carriage by air; and
(ii) are identified by class in accordance with the Technical
Instructions; and
(iii) are permitted by the Technical Instructions to be carried on
a passenger or cargo aircraft; and
(iv) are stowed and secured on the aircraft to prevent
movement and damage, and segregated in accordance with
the requirements of the Technical Instructions if they are
likely to react dangerously with one another; and
(c) the pilot-in-command of the aircraft ensures that every person on
board the aircraft knows, before boarding the aircraft, that the
dangerous goods are on board.

Sorry about the formatting. Full regs here

And for those trying to suggest that an empty leg out to pick up pax is technically a PVT operation, remember that the now empty Jerry Can is a DG that you will need approval to carry and need to manifest on the way home with pax.....

Thanks for that, compressor stall!

The regulator sure makes it easy :rolleyes: now all that remains is to get hold of a copy of the IATA Dangerous Goods Regulations or the ICAO Technical Instructions for the Safe Transport of Dangerous Goods by Air (neither of which seem to be a simple download, would one believe it..), and I can be sure I'm in the green for taking some sort of jerry can on a trip. Ridiculous :yuk:

They frown at you tipping them in the tank while airborne though :=

Yup, I'll have to make sure the autopilot is engaged for that one, and that I trim the aeroplane before I get out to sustain my weight and drag on the wing :}

In earnest, though, the only practical way for some of the LSA on a recent tour around the country to make the longer legs across the top end, was to have extra fuel on board for a quick stop at one of the many en route strips that had no facilities..

The answer is to fit bigger tanks! 6 hours worth is a good number.

Stallie, I assume if you dont bring the can back its not a problem!

J:ok:

Just curious, what type of aircraft are you using for your trip?

Having perhaps once met someone in the distant past who may have used jerry cans to tanker fuel I can mention a couple of minor points. Jerry cans are prone to rusting inside and need to be carefully checked at the bottom and corners before use. After engaging the locking lug shake and turn upside down to ensure the rubber seal is working OK, the smell and leakage of petrol in flight, apart from making you feel sick, can constitute a health hazard. To get any decent extra range you need about five of them, 100 litres and it is hard in most light aircraft to find somewhere to fasten them down securely, even lined up side by side. And last, no matter how carefully you handle them they are awkward to handle and tend to damage the paint and put dings in your luggage space. Not trying to put you off or anything.

Very good points Flywatcher.

The sad thing is that it's getting more and more difficult to source fuel in Australia (probably elsewhere too).

Once, most townships had Aeroclubs who supplied fuel and a cup of coffee plus a chat.
With those going broke and fuel facilities being pulled out, it's hard enough to get fuel during the week in business hours. :{
On a weekend or out of hours which with daylight saving still constitutes 30% of the daylight hours, the humble jerrycan is becoming necessary again despite the caveats you've raised.

I have no idea whether or not its legal - but carrying a large quantity of petrol in the cabin just doesn't seem like a particularly good idea to me!

I often carry a small petrol powered generator in the Bo but always empty its fuel tank first and bum some mogas for it at my destination.

Dr :8

to send dg on a commercial flight you need to have completed an approved DG course.... 3 days of excitment!

From memory you can have upto 5L of avgas/petrol (don't quote me on the 5L... but was something like that, which would cover your 'empty' jerry cans) on a commercial passenger carrying flight as long as you have the appropriate paper work completed by a approved person & the PIC has handling instructions / precautions (MSDS)

not to mention that it would be a bad idea to light your smoke....:=

The regs quoted in the post by compressor stall appear to be relatively straight forward. But how would this scenario apply?

Suppose a Glider Tug pilot employed by a full-time commercial operation has to aero tow retrieve a number of Gliders flown by overseas visitors, who have outlanded about 60nm from the base of ops.

The tuggie is using a Pa25-235 with wing tanks of 12US gal/side and the hopper part of the airframe is now a storage compartment. Given that there are about four, possibly five gliders to retrieve, he loads three 20lit Jerrycans into the compartment and secures them, planning to refuel out at one of the outlanding sites.

The idea is to fly to the furthest outlander, launch him to an altitude where the glider releases which is sufficient to return to the base in a straight glide.
The Tuggie then proceeds to the next outlander and launches him. By the time he lands at the third outlanding site he would be well and truly into reserves if he returned to base after launching this glider.

Comments?

Just talk to the CASA person who is responsible for DGs and get an exemption / clarification and have the process in the ops manual.

There many operators who are able to carry DGs with pax so what you set out above should be pretty straight forward.

I wasn't thinking of metal containers, rather plastic due weight and corrosion. Is that a bad idea for some reason?

Two cans with 20 litres each will give me 70 minutes of additional endurance. With my Archer, I could then do two 2.5 hour legs with a refueling/nature stop in the middle, and I would still have the fixed reserve and holding fuel.

Never use plastic containers as you cannot earth out the static electricity. When pouring fuel into the tanks, you could loose the aircraft through static build up.

Do not vent the jerry cans, as it is not necessary. If fumes were to find there way into the cockpit you would be a flying bomb. Just check they don't leak before securing them into the aircraft.

If you have to carry extra fuel as suggested, good quality jerry cans, secured upright are your "safest" option.

my opinion....?
DEADSET ILLEGAL under the IATA dangerous goods regulations. regardless of how they are secured, or even what type of container they are carried in.
Without a proper Dnagerous goods manifest and checklist with accompanying NOTOC and DG carrying approval, you are asking to be ramp checked.

A quick check of CASA CAR's/CAO's will refer you to the IATA dgr's and basically state that you MUST comply with the IATA DGR's to comply with the CASA CAR's/CAO's.

FTDK.... even that mogas driven gennie is illegal, IMHO.

From memory to carry it as a DG it would have to be in the original 200L drum, all sealed up and consigned as DGs on a freight only flight.

However if its a private flight then you can do as you please, however I wouldn't have thought it would have been a smart idea to carry fuel in jerry cans though. Mind you, I knew a guy who used to carrying plane loads of explosives on private flights!:hmm: Obviously tired of living:}

Didn't an aircraft carrying fuel containers to outback destinations recently go missing? Not pre-empting the reasons but it really doesn't sound like the safest way to carry fuel. DGR's are there for a reason, the category of operation doesn't make it safer(or more dangerous). I guess you could argue legalities till the cows come home, unless it's daylight savings of course:\, at the end of the day do you think it is the safest option?
As an aside, if you are a commercial pilot, who has DGA, are you bound by these regs even if on a private flight?:confused:

And FDTK, havent empty fuel tanks alledgedly exploded due to the high vapour/low ignition theory? Hope you gave it a good clean out.

Yes fair enough, probably illegal in a lot of countries.


What would you do in the case of a medevac and you were in the situation that you needed that extra fuel?

All I am trying to advise is if you are faced with the case of having to, do it properly. Done it on a lot of occasions over the years in Africa. Oh and BTW empty fuel containers are more dangerous than full containers, in a lot of circumstances. If you do have fumes in the cockpit, even flicking a switch could ignite the mixture.

Legal vs good idea???
 

PVT - DG regs don't apply

I've been "dobbed in" to CASA on this one before and asked to provide a "please explain", they were happy with my explanation that it was a PVT op (I flew the bosses C210 and I was off duty as I wanted to get the stranded aeroplane back for another PVT flight I wanted to take) to get fuel to a stranded aeroplane. Case closed (except trying to prove that the w@nker who thought he was dobbing me in really just had an axe to grind).

I believe that CASAs acceptance of my explaination deems it a licit operation (i.e. not illegal if truly PVT ops). However, I would caution anybody considering this to thoroughly consider all of the possibilities (think about Mission Aviation's latest history and the fact that they do have a DG acceptance program, of course that's still a very open investigation). Definately seal the jerrys, there's no need to vent at normal altutudes (if you do "vent" then the atmosphere will just push in through the vent causing air to try and escape somehow... which will lead to atmospheric pressure pushing on the fuel which, if the nozzle is stored inverted so that it extends into fuel, will lead to fuel coming out). Remember that you still have to meet the requirements of CASR 92.175 Subparts 92.B and 92.C (much like operators having DG acceptance).

For god's sake though be careful and think it all through carefully. Legal and ideal are two seperate things (I'll do it a bit differently the next time... I won't allow them to "vent" :ugh::ugh::ugh:)

FRQ CB

FTDK - a small generator is technically a DG, although if you are flying privately, you're generally OK as per the aforementioned regs. UN 3166 off the top of my head "engines, internal combustion." I write it a bit. :E

There are some operations in the world that fly fuel around all the time without incident. Sometimes in 44g drums, sometimes in jerry cans.

A quick look at the Alaskan DG regs might open a few eyes in this country. In fact there are a lot of things in Alaskan aviation that open eyes. :eek:

Now, If you had an aircraft with a Diesel engine, the lower flammability makes it a much safer operation :E

Stallie,
Yep sure they do things A LOT differently up there in Alaska, and northern Canada, and in every other remote area where they probably have to do things that little(or alot) differently to achieve the desired result, where no other realistic option may exist. Just don't forget to read the crash comics for those areas, it ain't all that easy.
DEW,
How many people do you want to put at risk, I am sure the authority on medivacs wouldn't put the rescuers' lives at risk for that. There will almost always be a much more effective, safer option,IMHO.

I'm O/S at the moment, and don't have Regs handy, but we used to carry spare JetA1 in plastic jerrycans quite legally, and relatively often.

I never found a metal jerrycan that had the correct approval stamp in Australia, only plastic ones: RACV in Melbourne sell them, and many of the discount car parts places. If it doesn't have the UN approval stamp, it's not legal := Most metal cans in Australia these days are Chinese copies, and are not suitable for aviation use :*

The number of cans allowed is listed in the IATA DG Manual, max of 20lt per can, obviously securely strap them down in the cabin or the cargo section, and must be in a cargo area if being carried along with passengers. If a charter/pax flight, they are only allowed if covered in the Company Ops Manual and Company DG manual, and iaw those manuals.

Thanks John,
I find it hard to believe that you can carry a DG designated Cargo A/C only with Pax, however to answer the question of the origional poster I, and no doubt they, would welcome a definitive answer. I can relate my own experiences to transporting m/cycles that where designated cargo A/C only due the fact it had carried fuel previously, and had to meet requirements for transport. I guess my point is the safety side, and if there is a defined procedure to carry fuel safely, is there a REG to define how? I doubt it, as I doubt that any A/C has a definitive method of restraining such DG, unless as defined in the company manuals, hence the the need to conform to a DG/Cargo manual to comply. Man what a circle:ugh:

Even if it was legal to do so, I wouldn't want to do such a thing myself. I'd rather plan my flight to where there is fuel available for the extra peace of mind and enjoy my flying without having the extra burden to worry about.

yowie,

The point you raise is the crux: you can carry a limited number of approved 20lt jerrycans on non pax flights, as Dangerous Goods, as long as they comply with the limits set in the IATA DG Manual, and as long as the carriage is iaw the Company Ops Manual/DG Manual if it is an AOC operation.

The actual number will have to be looked up by someone with access to the IATA DG Manual, I'm on holiday ;)

For a passenger aircraft you can have up to 5 L per container, but it has to be in a metal or plastic container, which then has to be packed inside a fibreboard box, metal drum, etc. that has to be UN specification. If you just have a single packaging, i.e just the fuel in a drum or jerrican then you are restricted to a cargo aircraft, i.e. no passengers and you can have up to 60 L in the container, but it has to be UN specification. There's no limit on the number of individual containers on either a pax or cargo aircraft. This is the requirements for the IATA DGR

As has been provided CASR 92.175 provides relief for private operations and then 92.185 offers relief from the provisons of the DGR for operations within Australian Territory to allow for petrol and aviation turbine fuel to be in in steel or aluminium drums with a capacity up to 220 L on a cargo aircraft.

I think John Eacott is on the money with this one.
I had a conversation a few years ago with a very experienced pilot about this and his view was that on a private flight you could carry (I think) up to 3 x 20lt containers, properly secured etc.
The main point made was that they had to be UN approved and therefore NOT the metal ones. In fact also many of the plastic ones were also no good.
The only ones he suggested were ok were the black ones with the yellow funnel, two openings at the top and so on. He said these were the only ones (at that time) that complied with all the regs, and had the correct stamps on them.

That may be so but the regs say otherwise for private operations.

Spare a thought for us chopper drivers that have to carry jerries in order to make the distance. Naturally we offload the cans when we have passengers :O
I always fear not being able to get started again after refuelling in remote locations, especially when ferrying machines around alone.

The result? 100's of cans located around WA !

Where are you now Stallie ?

Back around the late 70's - early 80's when I was working in the bush, we relied on deliveries of fuel (diesel) by aircraft to run everything... generators, boilers, stoves/ovens, heating, tractors, the works. Fuel deliveries were once a month and a day hated by us all, despite the absolute necessity of it. By the end of the day, you would be covered in diesel, through your clothing, on your boots, through you hair... a stinking mess. Swannies couldn't be washed to get rid of the fuel -that would also wash out the natural lanolins, destroying the water-proofing and thermal insulation of the garment. The fuel just decayed over time, or was washed out by the frequent heavy rain! Diesel on the sole of your boots made life treacherous on wet rocks already slick with lichens and moss...

I digress. The deliveries were made by C-185 in 22gal drums. From memory, we carried around 10-12 per trip, with anything up to a dozen return trips a day. A tarpaulin was laid in the back of the aircraft with seats removed (only the pilot was seated!) and the drums wedged in tight so there was no movement in-flight. Not unusual for a passenger to be carried, perched on the top of the drums, folded up like a 1/2-open pocket-knife! You wouldn't get away with that today!!! The flight was about 10mins each-way, landing on a rough gravel strip, deep in a mountain valley. If anyone's interested, the strip could be found on Google Earth at about S44 47 19.61 E167 45 10.51

The day was complicated by the fact the delivery tanker could not decant directly to the aircraft, so the process was usually to fill a tank at a service station, decant into 44gal drums for the trip to the airport, decant again into 22gal for the flight, then decant yet again, usually into 44's, for distribution to the various necessary points around the site! A long day... And yes, all that decanting was necessary, for various reasons.

I'm not sure how it's done today, although I would be confident that the fuel is still flown in -although probably as a sling-load under a fling-wing!

Not entirely relevant to the question posed, but still a DG in an aircraft -and an interesting solution to an awkward problem! I'm sure tinpis and others would be able to relate similar experiences!

Yup, never use plastic....Ive seen the results with a cropduster...not nice. Use metal, sealed, and somehow better if you connect a grounding cable to your aircraft structure. That should eliminate most static risks.
Tair

Yowie
There has yet to be anything here that is restricted to Cargo Aircraft only (except by large volume and assuming John was talking about AVTUR @60lt max for pax a/c, not AVGAS @5lt max for pax a/c).

UN3166, Engines internal combustion, flammable liquid powered: Class 9 Misc label, Pax& Cargo: No limit, Pkg Inst 900. ERG 9L. If the motorbike was flammable gas powered then it's CAO.

Fission
My oh my...when did you cross to the dark side? :E

As for me, in ML, but spending summers with Pygoscelis adeliae. :8

look's like a very interesting approach! would have been a spectacular place to fly!

definitely was all of that DanArcher... you were committed to landing well before you could see the strip -back around Dumpling, no missed, just a sheer rock wall. Beautiful place, miss it badly.

Depends on what type of explosives they were Nev. Another lifetime ago I spent six year on a Seismic Survey crew working with explosives. The stuff I used (Anzite; which was basically Gelignite but with additives to make the charge 'bulkier', and Anzomex boosters; a chunk of explosive which was composed of a 50/50 mix of TNT and PETN) was quite powerful, but as long as you adhered to the basic safety procedures was quite safe!

The only thing that would set any of that stuff off was a detonator being placed into a charge and then detonated. So as long as it was left alone, no worries!:ok:

Though being in almost constant contact with the stuff used to turn my fingernails yellow!:uhoh: