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rep 27th Jun 2008 07:40

ctaf procedures
 
can someone please confirm if this is correct:

1) when staying in the circuit climb to within 300' of circuit height before turning xwind
2) when departing the circuit in the circuit direction, climb to 1000' before turning xwind
3) when departing the circuit opposite to the circuit direction, climb to 1500' before turning xwind

every instructor seems to have a different oppinion these days!

cheers!

ejectx3 27th Jun 2008 07:47

correct. except change 1000' to 1500' for high performance aircraft

also....

Climb to circuit height, then turn 45 ˚ in circuit direction if departing same direction as circuit (AIP ENR 1.1 - 59)

Niles Crane 27th Jun 2008 08:08

Anyhting goes as it is now "Recommended" so yes everyone is doing whatever they please in all levels of the industry.

Welcome to Dick Smith Space!

Ando1Bar 27th Jun 2008 11:53

Ahhh, the non-towered aerodrome debate.


every instructor seems to have a different oppinion these days!
More instructors need to read the AIPs/Jeps. Rep, you are correct.


Climb to circuit height, then turn 45 ˚ in circuit direction if departing same direction as circuit (AIP ENR 1.1 - 59)
My understanding of this requirement is it makes your departure wider than the circuit, keeping you further away from the circuit traffic.

Follow the recommendations, but do whatever is safe and sensible.

Charlie Foxtrot India 28th Jun 2008 11:55

Aip Enr 59
 
59 Departure Information

59.1 Pilots of departing aircraft should:
a) If departing in the direction of the circuit, climb on the extended centreline to circuit height. When past the departure end of the runway continue straight ahead or make a 45 degree turn in the circuit direction

b) If departing contrary to circuit direction, pilots should wait until 500 feet above circuit height before turning and bradcast on the CTAF

So it is not AGL, but circuit height - which is not necessarily 1000 feet AGL, otherwise you would not be able to depart contrary to circuit direction at Jandakot (circuit height 900 feet AGL) outside tower hours without busting Perth CTA.

It's a worry if instructors don't know their AIPs...or the difference between "should" and "recommended"...:eek:

Cap'n Arrr 28th Jun 2008 12:23

Isn't contrary to circuit direction either 500' abv OR 3nm out?

PyroTek 28th Jun 2008 12:47


1) when staying in the circuit climb to within 300' of circuit height before turning xwind
At YRED i've been instructed to turn xwind at 500'...

Cap'n Arrr 28th Jun 2008 12:55

If you look up YCNK in the ERSA it has a similar rule.

I believe the within 300' is "unless there is a specific aerodrome procedure"

Having said that the old system used to be turning XWind at 500' AGL, so they could just still be using the old rules.

ForkTailedDrKiller 28th Jun 2008 13:15


1) when staying in the circuit climb to within 300' of circuit height before turning xwind
2) when departing the circuit in the circuit direction, climb to 1000' before turning xwind
3) when departing the circuit opposite to the circuit direction, climb to 1500' before turning xwind

Huh? When did this happen?

Dr :8

Vref+5 28th Jun 2008 13:29

About 2 1/2 years ago.

My interpretation is the procedures are aimed at having those who are remaining the circuit established at circuit height before you turn downwind. If you are not remaining in the circuit the procedures are aimed at keeping you clear of the circuit pattern.

Of course, the standard procedures do not work in every possible scenario, that is why they are recommended, it lets the pilot in command decide the safest course of action.

Same with the radio calls. If you can get the standard ones in great. If not just make the next one in the sequence, as opposed to the "I'm half way down on a wide left downwind, over Joe's house". Of course if you need to speak up do so "Tracking number 2 to ABC" etc.

Safe flying.:ok:

VH-XXX 29th Jun 2008 03:22

I like the idea of following the procedure as best as you can and possibly varying if you can't for whatever reason, I don't have a problem with that.

What I DO have a problem with is the LOSERS that take it upon themselves to inform me that I haven't done the correct procedure.

ie. Yesterday, a straight in approach at CTAF, called at 9 miles, 5 miles, then 2.5, for a number of reasons. Only to be greeted with VH-XXX "the correct procedure for a straight in approach is to call at 5, 3 & 1 miles." I said thanks for that Mr. Air Traffic Control.

If you're not manly enough to say who you are on the radio when attempting to tell someone they have done the wrong thing (in your opinion), stay off the damn radio! rant over.

gettin' there 29th Jun 2008 05:36


1) when staying in the circuit climb to within 300' of circuit height before turning xwind

Remember these are only "recomended."

Its going to depend alot on the aircraft that your are flying. Some of the guys i follow around bashing the CCT fly wide eough as it is and they all turn at 500' AGL. If they waited till 700' they would be outside of the CTAF anyway!!!

Personally i reckon that the sooner you turn X-wind (of course not bellow 500AGL) the closer you stay to the RWY, the less time you are spending when you are not gonna make it back to the RWY if your donk dies.

Common sense i say, depends on where you are and what you are in.

Ando1Bar 29th Jun 2008 06:08


At YRED i've been instructed to turn xwind at 500'...
Pyrotek, RAC choose to do this because of noise abatement (there are a lot of loud, rich, noisy residents at Scarborough).


What I DO have a problem with is the LOSERS that take it upon themselves to inform me that I haven't done the correct procedure.

ie. Yesterday, a straight in approach at CTAF, called at 9 miles, 5 miles, then 2.5, for a number of reasons. Only to be greeted with VH-XXX "the correct procedure for a straight in approach is to call at 5, 3 & 1 miles." I said thanks for that Mr. Air Traffic Control.

If you're not manly enough to say who you are on the radio when attempting to tell someone they have done the wrong thing (in your opinion), stay off the damn radio! rant over.
:ugh: If they are going to have a go at you XXX, they should learn the procedures also. There is no 5 mile call - 10, 3 & 1 only.

chode1984 29th Jun 2008 09:08

64.6.3 A pilot should include the intention to conduct a straight−in approach
with the inbound broadcast. Further broadcasts on the
CTAF at 3NM final, and 1NM final (with intentions) should be
made.

VH-XXX 29th Jun 2008 09:27

Interesting point chode - intentions for straight-in with inbound call, then you specically mention 3 and 1. I assumed 10, 5 (with intentions), 3 & 1.
Not picking at you, just temporarily confused. Because 10 is nowdays the first call versus 5...

Cap'n Arrr 29th Jun 2008 09:40

Nope... no call required at 5nm, it's just the point at which you must be established on final by.:ok:

Radio inbound with intentions for straight in at 10nm, then call 3nm and 1nm final. And give way to anyone established in the circuit (try convincing some of the people out there to do that!:eek:)

flyinggit 29th Jun 2008 11:26

I guess technically you could be established for a straight in at 50 mls out or beyond only giving calls as necessary. The word "should" & "recomended" in the regs means to me anyway that it's not B&W & as others have said it depends on a lot of variables. I hear some regionals give 5 ml calls as established as "'cap'n"' said, they have done so for many years prior to ctafs straight ins.


FG

Capn Bloggs 29th Jun 2008 12:08

All,

Before you start blasting people for not knowing the rules, make sure you know them yourself. In addition to the AIP CTAF calls, HiCap RPT are required to announce at 15nm AND 5nm their intention to conduct a SI App. CAO 82.5 refers. So depending on what the aircraft is, it is quite conceivable that from an aircraft doing a SI App, calls at 15, 5, 3, and 1 will be made.

Anyway, I wouldn't be getting your curlies in a knot about the current CTAF calls. The washup of the PIR of NAS 2c has them being thrown out with only two mandatory calls for inbound and two for inbound. :ok: :D Watch this space.

Ultralights 29th Jun 2008 13:38

YHOX today
VH-XXX "hoxton blah bla, 5 miles west inbound at 1700 ft"
VH-XXX "hoxton blah 3 miles west inbound at 1700 ft
VH-XXX "above runway 34 at 1700 will descend to circuit on the dead side"
VH-XXX "turning downind on the dead side of circuit and descending"
VH-XXX "joining circuit crosswind 34 blah blah
tunring downwind call, turning base call, turning final call...

thats was enough, but worst of all, there were 2 aircraft doing the exact same calls!!!! both within about 1 minute of each other! :ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh: with me joining the circuit as well, there would have been no chance of a 4th aircraft to get even 1 call in! i was struggling to find a gap in the constant commentary to get my standard calls in!
throw in their accents, and the situation was beyond a joke!:mad:

Ando1Bar 29th Jun 2008 22:28


VH-XXX "hoxton blah bla, 5 miles west inbound at 1700 ft"
VH-XXX "hoxton blah 3 miles west inbound at 1700 ft
VH-XXX "above runway 34 at 1700 will descend to circuit on the dead side"
VH-XXX "turning downind on the dead side of circuit and descending"
VH-XXX "joining circuit crosswind 34 blah blah
tunring downwind call, turning base call, turning final call...
Why so many calls? It amazes me why pilots are taught to give radio calls overhead and then the dead side - joining crosswind is enough. Common sense applies though if you are trying to avoid a collision (however, most times this is not the case).

My favourite poor CTAF call is the departure call (which is not found in the recommended radio calls). "Caboolture traffic, Cessna 172 ABC, departed 48, tracking 220 for Warwick, passing 1600 climbing to 3500, estimate Warwick time 30".

The problem is some pilots/instructors seem to get confused with an IFR departure report from the AIPs/Jeps. CTAF depature calls are good at times, don't get me wrong, but who cares what time you are going to be at an aerodrome many miles away? Inbound calls with circuit estimates are a different kettle of fish.

Learn the procedures, use common sense. Don't speak sh#t.

Cap'n Arrr 29th Jun 2008 22:56

I generally make the following calls:

- 10 nm inbound "XXX TFC, ABC is one zero miles NW, 4500, inbound, XXX"
- Overhead the runway (I know you don't have to, and if it's busy I don't always throw it in, but it lets the guys in the circuit know where you are, and if noones in the circuit it lets people know which runway is in use. My current companies rule is to make an overfly call when overflying a CTAF.
- Joining X-Wind. (You DO NOT have to make a turning downwind call when joining crosswind)
- Turning Base with intentions
- I also do make departure calls, mainly along the lines of "XXX departed from downwind <Aerodrome> at time __, tracking 220 to <Next point>, on climb to 5500 passing 2500." Generally don't use the ETA for next reporting point. Making this call has given a heads up to potentially conflicting traffic more than once, and it also means that the guy behind you in the circuit isn't left wondering what you're doing.

flyinggit 29th Jun 2008 23:13

CTAF or CTAF/R means = Common Traffic Advisory Frequency. My instructor told me that it's all 'advisory' (apart from what mandatory as per regs) & extra calls ought to be made when applicable.

FG

VH-XXX 30th Jun 2008 03:35

You guys have gotta stop using my rego for your written examples (VH-XXX), it's costing me a fortune in Avdata and Airservices fees!

antzx6r 30th Jun 2008 05:08

This is a mixed bag at the moment. There are the manditory calls (I think inbound, joining and base calls) and apart from that its common sense. ie if some one is holding ready to line up, make a finals call just as an extra heads up(so to speak). But remember there is no requirement for a radio at all for CTAF aerodromes (unlike CTAF(r)), so really your eyes should be out of the cockpit at all times and broadcasts to a minimum req, with safety in mind for any 'extra' calls. That's what ive been taught anyway.
On the issue of climb out to 300' of cct height, I too was told that this is to ensure all aircraft are at cct height for the turn downwind without making the cct too 'wide'. Not really an issue for us 'lighter' aircraft as we are usually at cct height before you can blink. No problem turning xwind at 500 agl and still keeping a tight cct. Although as an xtra point we are required to follow those 152's forever till they can turn xwind. (such an annoyance... na just ribbin' ya ;) )

VH-XXX 30th Jun 2008 10:45

For those that missed it over 2 years ago, the regs now clearly state to turn crosswind at 300ft below circuit height, so 700 or 1200...

Ando1Bar 30th Jun 2008 12:01


For those that missed it over 2 years ago, the regs now clearly state to turn crosswind at 300ft below circuit height, so 700 or 1200...
This is only applicable when remaining in the circuit.

VH-XXX 30th Jun 2008 23:00

ANY CTAF..... don't always believe what your instructor has been telling you, he might have not realised like half of the others on here.

Jabawocky 30th Jun 2008 23:09

This is not rocket science. This thread should have stopped after about 3-4 posts.:ugh:

Now I know why FTDK and a few other old timers on here complain about the degrading of training standards:sad:

J

Swanie 1st Jul 2008 00:43

Who to believe?...
 
Car 166 (operating in vicinity of a non-controlled aerodrome)
paragraph 2(h);
"After take-off, maintain the same track from the take-off untill the aircraft is 500' above the terrain unless a change to the track is necessary for terrain avoidance"

AIP
"Pilots remaining in the circuit SHOULD climb to within 300' of circuit height before turning crosswind"


:E

antzx6r 1st Jul 2008 01:09

Trust CASA to make something so simple, vague enough to cause this much confusion.:hmm:
We really need reform. Or at least some clarification. How hard is it to get some simple rules. Maybe its just to keep us on our toes or maybe to thin us down to make way for RPT. Now theres a grizzly thought.:suspect:

Cap'n Arrr 1st Jul 2008 09:03

Don't see any confliction between the regs there Swanie. Pilots must climb to at least 500' before turning. In addition, remaining in the circuit should climb to within 300' of circuit height.

So just climb to 700', (or 1200 if you have a d/wind speed >120kts) and turn crosswind. No rules broken, standard procedures complied with, and all is well in the world.

In my experience much of the confusion about this comes from people who have learnt to fly at a Controlled Aerodrome, where the crosswind turn IS made at 500' AGL, and then don't know the regs for Class G, and just assume it's the same.

Ando1Bar 1st Jul 2008 10:47


As far as i've been tought, 500ft agl turn x-wind or risk sensible ppl turning inside you anyway (request) because you'll end up further from the runway than necessary and safe, and also use excess fuel...

for calls we are tought when busy, an 10mile inbound call (obvious reasons - nothing worse than some bafoon arriving, piping up saying hes suddenly joinging midfield crosswind when your on downwind)
2. overhead the field,
3. joining downwind,
4. base with intensions
5. final also with traffic (ie, turns final, runway ..., number 2). insures the guy infront of you or behind can vacate the runway hastely or take his time etc.
6. departure call. (so the person coming inbound knows your not climbing into his path)

some may think excessive but helps with the whole situationl awareness
You've been taught the wrong thing. Call overhead the field? Base with intentions? Read your AIPs or the information pack put out by DOTARs. Then show your instructor:

http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/avi...m/pdf/40pp.pdf


nothing worse than some bafoon arriving,piping up saying hes suddenly joinging midfield crosswind when your on downwind
Nothing wrong with this, a crosswind join is perfectly legit, read the reform.

By the way, you are not 'joining downwind' if coming from overhead the airfield. You have joined crosswind (make the call!) then turned downwind. Joining downwind is from the 45 deg. angle.


As far as i've been tought, 500ft agl turn x-wind or risk sensible ppl turning inside you anyway (request)
It's folk like you that are turning inside of me because YOU are not following the recommendations.

Sorry for the rant, targetting you in particular QCPog, but I've just spent another day guiding my aircraft around others who are not following the recommendations.

I don't always get it 100% right, but I try my hardest to follow the regs and AIP/Jep procedures while trying to pass on airmanship to my students.

Jabawocky 1st Jul 2008 10:51

Departure call????? FFS if you made you correct broadcast on the ground anyone close enough to conflict with you would have heard that.:ugh:

Ando1Bar 1st Jul 2008 11:15

Jaba, no doubt this departure call was given following the standard IFR departure report format. This seems to be a favourite amongst some pilots.

Mark1234 1st Jul 2008 11:56

Ok, slight thread drift; still on the subject of CTAF, I've read what I can find, but I'm confused.. paraphrasing:

CTAFs no longer have defined airspace limits
Aircraft should broadcast by (min) 10nm inbound or overflying and listen out on the ctaf frequency.

So, how high do they go? 3000? 50000? To the base of class E? Higher?
How do you handle en-route - and what constitutes overflying?

For instance if I head southeast from YMMB I head towards/ past Tyabb and Tooradin, both on different CTAF frequencies about 10nm apart. Apart from the practicalities of not overflying Tooradin due parachuting, what *should* I be doing?

Ando1Bar 1st Jul 2008 21:13

Unfortunately only common sense is the answer. For example, overflying a non-towered aerodrome at 1500ft en-route I will definately give a broadcast and listen to the CTAF. If I'm at 5500ft AGL I'm unlikely to give a broadcast, but will listen to the CTAF for situational awareness about inbound/outbound traffic.

Your example is a little different. If I had only one comm I'd listen to the CTAF I was closest to, or had traffic I was more likely to come into conflict with. If you have two comms, why not one CTAF on both? The only problem then is whether you'd want to be listening to Centre at the same time.

I haven't been past Tyabb or Tooradin for a while so I can't give specific advice.

james michael 1st Jul 2008 22:03

Mark 1234

As Ando says, common sense IS the answer. That's why the original CTAF showing dimensions was not common sense.

The original TDN CTAF was 3 miles 3000' from memory. If they are dropping tandem paras from 4500' (thus not in CTA) then the old dimensions were unsafe as you would fly straight through them. If you are coming from MB (have a look at the chart) you go from ML Radar to a 3 Nm CTAF just in time to punch thru the paras again.

So, in your flight planning, you are wise to look for symbols like parachuting and also listen on the area and CTAF well back, setting a minimum dimension of 10Nm for a busy CTAF.

The airfields in proximity issue continues to be debated. The best advice on this is Annex E to NFRM 0401AS which states:

Overlap situations.
In some circumstances, an aircraft may be in the vicinity of more than one non-controlled aerodrome having different frequencies at any time.
Where this overlap situation occurs, pilots of aircraft that have only one radio should select the CTAF of the aerodrome to which the aircraft is inbound, or if the aircraft is overflying, then the CTAF of the aerodrome to which the aircraft is nearer at any time should be selected.

Even then, commonsense is still needed - technically if you fly past Avalon you should leave the AV CTAF R frequency and transfer to Werribbee 126.7 when closer to Werribee. I don't recommend it!


Mark1234 1st Jul 2008 23:50

I wasn't looking for advice on those specific airfields per se, just general principles. Common sense is what I am applying at the moment; it just makes me nervous that I'm breaking some rule that I can't find :)

Coming from the uk, the standard ctaf (atz) there is 3/3000, (I believe they can be bigger), and parachute drop zones are protected (P/R/D I don't remember) airspace - you flat don't go there.. def inclined to agree that parachutists and aeroplanes don't mix..

Thanks.

Capn Bloggs 2nd Jul 2008 00:51

Mark,

Coming from the uk, the standard ctaf (atz) there is 3/3000,
Our system was basically the same until Dick Smith got really involved and imposed on us, via "Australian Government policy", the NAS. Now, as you can see from the above posts, the rules/guidelines/commonsense/good airmanship have been muddied to the point of being confusing.

james michael 2nd Jul 2008 01:33

Bloggs

Not going near the DS matter but aircraft travel at very different speeds and CTAF very different traffic volumes and types.

The 'one size fits all' CTAF hardly fits the variation.

Not going into a NAS debate either but if the unique Australian CTAF R and Transponders in E were world's best practice - the world would be following us. They are not.


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