U.S. pilots in Oz?
 

Hi, all! I'm an A318/319 F.O. in the U.S. & I'm curious whether it's possible to get work rights and a job in Australia. I've read the threads regarding the Rex "pilot shortage" article. That guy sounds like several of the CEOs of U.S. regionals . . . pathetic, really. :{ I'm sure it won't be long 'til we're facing similar challenges here in the U.S. Sadly, I feel that employment challenges will be some of the smaller concerns here in the not too distant future . . . :mad: politicians! Several years ago, I researched the possibility of moving to Oz & it seemed like a closed door. My hope is that a 'special' visa might be an option for my family and I. I was hoping for some unfiltered advice & opinion from you guys. Is it possible? How competitive might I be? (7000 total, 1400 turbine PIC, one jet type, 38 years old) What's the ATP conversion like? Would you guys consider me a job-stealing foreigner? How's the pay? Taxes? I'm sure Aussies are no fun to work with, right? :E

Starskate.... that was a joke post wasn't it? Very funny... man I am in stitches.

Wow Starskate, that's a pretty bitter post ! And with quite a few errors of fact, too. My Dad wasn't rich, or connected, or a pilot, or any such thing. I paid for my own civilian flight training here in Oz and am happily employed as a pilot.

There are loads of flying jobs in Australia at the moment. In 16 years of flying, I don't ever remember it being like this. For the airlines, you need to talk to them. For GA, the "jobs" link at http://www.afap.org.au will pretty quickly show you that we're short of pilots here.

The CASA ATPL Checklist (go to http://www.casa.gov.au and type Form 747 in the search box) says that the holder of an Overseas ATPL(A) wanting to convert to an Aussie one needs, amongst other things, an Australian ME-CIR (Form 645 from the same website), and passes in CPL and ATPL Law. That's 3 exams, not 14. You'd need a flight test for the ME-CIR, but not the ATPL because in Oz there's currently no flight test for the issue of an ATPL.

Even people doing the full ATPL at the highest profile groundschool here wouldn't spend 3 months there, unless they had to have more than one attempt and went back for a lot more study.

And don't hold your breath waiting for FAA pilots being given the right to fly here. If you've got a Kiwi ATPL you can get TTMRA recognition, but anything else is total fantasy.

Starskate, I hope it was a joke. It wouldn't hurt for the spelling and grammar to be taken a bit more seriously though. This is supposed to be a professional forum.:ugh:

Good luck anyway.

Cheers.:ok:

I'm ex-USAF, have chosen a life in the southern hemisphere with my Aussie, and just completed a FAA ATP to CASA ATPL conversion. Here’s the scoop…

2 main issues facing an expat pilot wanting to work down under presently:

Immigration: if you want to fly jets with the major players i.e. QANTAS, Virgin Blue, Jet Star you MUST hold Australian Permanent Residency with either a visa, Oz passport, or citizenship (most all the regionals also have a similar requirement). Presently pilots aren’t on the Skilled Occupation List (SOL) but are on the Employer Nomination Scheme Occupation List (ENSOL). The short of this is that Oz won’t just be giving you a visa to come work as a pilot. You’ll either need to get a visa on your own merits (birth, spouse, family) or be nominated by a specific airline employer (QF/VB/J* don’t nominate to my knowledge). If the regionals do go down this road, know that this is a position specific visa and you just can’t quit one airline and join another - you’ll need a new visa.

Licence Conversion: while it is not the traumatic experience Starskate presents, I wouldn't call it an easy or inexpensive process either. My back ground is USAF, nearly 8 years of world wide heavy flying experience, and I hold numerous jet type ratings on my FAA ATP. In order to convert my licence I was required to pass 3 written exams:

- Instrument Rating Exam (IREX): 3.5 Hour Exam / 70% to Pass
- CPL Flight Rules & Air Law (CLWA): 2.0 Hour Exam / 80% to Pass
- ATPL Air Law (AALW): 1.5 Hour Exam / 80% to Pass
*NOTE: some airlines want credits in ALL ATPL Theory subjects (that’s 7 written tests).

Also unless you have formerly flow in Australia, you will have to do a flight test for the initial issue of a Multi-Engine Command Instrument Rating (MECIR) which is separate from the ATPL. I know it is odd for North Americans, but you can have an ATPL and not be instrument rated in Oz.

The flight test isn’t some quick "All ATPs" course where you show up, get ‘the gouge’ and fly a few quick flights. To get all the NAVAID endorsements on your initial MECIR you will need to fly an ILS / NDB / VOR / RNAV (GNSS) / DGA (DME or GPS Arrival – Aussie procedure) and HOLD, all while doing the usual run of single engine, circling, and missed approaches. I liken it more to a full route check and was expected to fly to another airport, utilize airways, and really know and operate under Australia’s vast expanse of Civil Aviation Regulations and Orders (CARs/CAOs). In my case that equated to a 3 hour flight test and covered 4 different airports to get all the endorsements.

By now I am sure you are wondering what low, low, price all this training will cost. Here is the breakdown for me...

Cost: (Presently .89 AUD = 1 USD)
Flight Training: usually done in a light twin (BE76 PA44 etc). Costs vary 300-500/hr DUAL depending on region. Unless you are current/proficient in light twin, single pilot, IFR expect about 10 hours of flight time including your flight test: 4000 / 3600

*Note: I have heard of the initial MECIR being done in your usual type (A320 B737 etc) by finding an approved testing officer (ATO) and booking sim time. It avoids the hassle of relearning a light twin, but cost will vary at the market rate for the sim.

Examiner Fees: 400 / 360

CASA Licensing Fees:
Certificate of Validation (needed for initial flight training): 150 / 135
ATPL Licensing / Ratings / Endorsements Fee: 180 / 162
*Note: In the end all of my FAA ATP type ratings were recognised and listed as endorsements on my CASA ATPL.

CASA Class 1 Medical:
Medical Examiner Fees: 150 / 135
Ophthalmologist: 160 / 144
Blood Work: 40 / 36
CASA Processing Fee: 75 / 68

Written Exam Fees:
IREX: 174 / 156
CLWA: 154 / 139
AALW: 144 / 130

Pubs: (you require your own copy – none provided by CASA for testing / flight)
Approach Plates: 177 / 160
CAR, CAO, ERSA, AIP, Charts (their FARs etc): 660 / 594

Aviation Security Identification Card (Background check): 196 / 176

GRAND TOTAL (TO CONVERT YOUR LICENSE): 6660 AUD or 5995 USD

So now with a visa and licence in hand you can start job hunting in the pilot shortage! Other things to consider are the fact that the Oz aviation scene is closer in relation to the very thorough British/JAA aviation systems. Given that aussie pilots tend to be more theory based, one must recognise that their system is just different and it may not be to your liking. Also Australia is a large supplier of pilots to the world market (Cathay, Emirates, etc) so be fore warned there will be a large amount of pilots chasing the big jobs. The pilot shortage seems to be focused primarily in the regional market where the terms and conditions are generally worse.

The bottom line is that if you are willing to jump through the hoops, you prove to be a good guy, and you don't come with a "well that's not how we do it in America" attitude you will find a job in Oz. I love Australia, their laid back attitude, and their culture but I think it will take more than just a love of kangaroos to keep you going through the entire bureaucratic process some days.

Blue Skies,
MayFly

P.S. After 5 months I still don't have my VISA and am looking to off shore contract work in the interim. PM me if you have specific questions.

WARNING!

Historically, Americans have been regarded as "Over-paid, over-sexed & over here".

These days, we tend to think that collectively, Americans are a bunch of fukcwits.:E

Individually, we'll love you.:D

PS Don't further infect our airwaves with non-standard phraseology & americanism radio calls like 'out of FLXXX fo FLXXX", or "with you on12X.XX" or any other crap ones we haven't heard yet.:ugh:

PSS Learn how to get 'the pi$$ taken out of you" with grace.:p

????
 

As far as science, technology and organisation goes, Americans are obviously ahead of most nations. Their technology is second to none.
The americans I have met and worked with have been generally very nice people.
But I have to wonder about a nation that has thousands of people locked up, awaiting execution. Idi Amin did that.

Really good posts here.

I'm also in the middle of the process, and would only add one thing;

Class 1 medical cost me nearer A$700 all in, and took a while to get done, so make that a priority as soon as you arrive.

ASIC cannot be issued until you have a FCL, sooooooo send it off with your CPL license.

The CPL is good old fashioned pilotage and chart reading, so remember your days in a cub following roads....

And after all is said and done, don't forget how great a place this is, and how worthwhile it will all have been when you have a job and a visa! :ok:

p.s.s.s Did I mention the fact that when you meet a nice american - they turn out to be Canadian?:8















That's what I mean about 'taking the piss":ok:

MayFly, thanks for sharing your experience here.

For the last couple weeks I've been thinking about doing my CPL in the states and have it converted to CASA CPL since my aussie dollars is currently in a very strong position against USD. That way I can save significant amount of $$$ from the training.

After reading your post I started to realise I might actually end up paying a lot more for the FAA CPL than doing a CASA CPL. Plus the time spend in waiting for the convert process. I really appreciate your quality inputs on the thread and wish you successful with your career progress. :ok:

p.s. Is it true as mentioned on this thread that having overseas ATPL converted to CASA ATPL will disadvantage one from getting employ in Australia?

wtf?
 

Bushy wtf does any of that have to do with the post, being a pilot, aviation or converting your license?

??????
 

The title of this thread is "US pilots in oz." My comment is relevent.

Relevant? Try upping you medication a little bit.

The death penalty and Idi Amin have what to do with 'U.S. Pilots in OZ' exactly?

If you want to enter into political commentary and debate there are plenty of other sites for that. This is an aviation forum.

VegasCorndoc. Check the Department of Immigration and Citizenship web site for the 457 Visa and the RSMS scheme as I understand some airline operators in Australia will consider sponsoring experienced overseas pilots.

Both Visas have a rural and regional residential requirement, however the definition of "rural and regional" appears to include most of Australia, including a number of cities. I think you will find REX, M@cair, NJS, Skippers and a number of other airlines are all located in "rural & regional" Australia.

Can confirm 100% US ATP will not be looked at. Not even the converted ones.

And for some reason they seem to get really pissed if you cal them a yank...;)

Hey, great stuff here! Thanks for all the input . . . and the 'piss'! Frankly, I agree with most of the 'piss' and politics expressed here. In fact, these are some of my main reasons for starting this thread. Anyway, it sounds like I'm pretty well screwed unless one of you guys wants to marry an American man & adopt his wife & two kids! I'm six feet tall, hazel eyes, chiseled features . . . stunning, really. I like sunsets, long talks & snuggling. :}

Thanks again for all the input!

Veg Corndog, do you hold any other qualifications that might be on the Australian 'wanted' list??:ok:

If you do, that might be an 'angle' to get in via a 457 visa.

Or, if you are really keen, you might go get yourself one of those qualifications and then apply?:ugh:

That's alot of brain damage - depends how much it means to come here.

You don't want to go through all of that, only to find out that it really is only some second rate 54th State of the USA:{

The more cynical of us would say that vegascorndog being white, educated, fairly young, healthy, speaks fluent english, financially independant and emminently employable...........stands no chance of immigrating. Much better chance if you discuise yourself as an Asian refugee with no English or work skills.....oh and come on a boat and you're "In like Flyn"..especialy if Mr Ruddock and his left wing union thug mates get in at the next election.

One thing to learn about Aussies, if they are polite to you, then they just tolerate you. But...if they give you a hard time, that means your accepted as one of us. Comes from our colonial past. Seriously, Aussies dont care who you are or where you came from, if you're a good bloke then you will have no problems. Have several American friends who have moved here and highly value their friendship.

Good luck.

But better spelling skills than you no more catering.:hmm:

As you can see, Corndog, we have people here you would find the equivalent of deep in the back roads of Arkansaw or Mississippi.

Except here they dress up as 'easy going, tolerant Aussies' .

If you're looking to escape that sort of ugliness - try Sweden (maybe).

Unfortunately, we're all stocked up here.:ugh:

* My bold.

You are referring to two opposing sides of the political arena NMC. I was under the impression that Philip Ruddock was a member of the Liberal party and as such the union movement of Australia was more "in bed" with the other major political force in the country... Unless of course there is another Mr. Ruddock involved in politics with an agenda that none of the voters of this country are aware of yet (please enlighten us NMC)?

FYI NMC... The Attorney General

Well spotted the deliberate mistake , that should have read Mr Rudd.

Rednecks here?, I dont think so, just an aussie who can read between the lines. It was admitted by senior officials in the Hawke and Keating governments that the family reunion scheeme was aimed at attracting people who had no chance of employent and would of course become labour voters. .

At the same time, a family friend who wanted to bring his 5 million pound annual tunover company to Oz from Great Britain was knocked back on his Oz emmigration application.

So what is one to think.

Read the book ..Ämong the Barbarians by Paul Sheean, will open your eyes to whats been going on

Aussie proud - no wogs allowed
 

Completely uncalled for:ugh::mad:

Much Ado.

Oh grow up mate, geez. Its really boring to listen to people who bring out the racism card everytime something doesnt go their way.

Anyone who knows me well would tell you I am about the least racist person around. My best mate is a Samoan, my circle of friends(male and female) includes Tongans, Kiwis, both Maori and White, Greeks, Yugoslavs, Italians, Americans, Candians, even Poms(dispite them not being able to field a decent cricket team ha ha).

My circle of school friends is predominantly of Chineese decent. of course not to forget the usual bag of Aussies. I dont think of any of them by their nationality or background, just who they are as people.

I look after my young students, who might I add are Chineese nationals like my own sons, and many have become good mates, so the race card realy doesnt wash with me. Sir!!

I am sick of people appling the race arguement to situations it simply doesnt belong. Moreover, the race card is now used simply as a barganing tool to leverage an unfair advantage in negotiations when ordinary Aussies "9of all backgrouds) fear being branded "racist".

An example of this is illustrated in Paul Sheeans book, among the Barbarians. In Sydney's Chinatown, there is a building code that restricts the hight of buildings to a limit of 3 stories. That height limit was in force long before Chinatown was a twinkle in the eye of its creator.

A prominent property developer, who was Chinese put a development application in to the Sydney City Council for a 27 story residental building which was refused by the council on the grounds that it exceeded the height restriction. He then tried to get it approved through the courts claiming "racist policies by the council were unfairly hindering his business", and the only reason it was not being approved was because of his nationality.

Happily, the case was thrown out of court with the judge specifically citing that the zoning regulations of that sector applied EQUALLY to every one, regardles of race, colour or creed.

By the way, Mein Kamp is a book that chamions the idea that one race is inherrently superior to another on the BASIS of race. That IS racism, an ideal that I find repugnant.

Some airlines (VB) accept an Oz ATPL with a pass in ATPL Flight Planning (which also happens to have the highest fail rate at 80%) and not a converted foreign licence. Don't tell me why, but they don't make it easy for outsiders.

Hmmm, this debate sounds eerily familiar. In the U.S., the issue is complicated by the fact that there are 12 million immigrants here illegally. According to the most impartial reports I've read (those are hard to find!), they provide a net benefit to the economy, but they're breaking the law in doing so. Deporting them all is literally impossible, if it were even desirable. Overlying every thought, apparently, is the 9/11-heightened xenophobic paranoia that seems to find its way into every facet of our lives now. :hmm: Anyway, sorry for pulling the pin on this particular sh!t grenade. The concensus opion I'm hearing here is that I'm pretty much SOL. Too bad. Despite the apparently similar internal political differences in Oz, I can't imagine your country embarassing itself on a global scale and going directly against its founding principles, as mine has done in the last four years. I'll still come to visit! Take that as a threat or a promise at your discretion! :)

Vegas...what a pussy!!!.....was in your shoes 28 yrs ago......married a shelia ,got the greenie...life is good /..work both sides of the continent,,,,,if your smart you will do the same thing...

....there are many unsuspecting Oz/kiwi shelias that will shag/bonk and procure you in one foul swoop...grow some balls....do not rely on this forum to forfill your destiny.....its amazing how youth today has such small go-nads:(:(

Believe me, the current government has been doing its best in that department.

51st state? Australia? Nah............:rolleyes:

not English (or Politics) students, I hope! ;)

Thread revival:
 

So, I got on the website of the Australian Dep't of Immigration and Citizenship & found "Pilot" on the "Skilled Occupations List". Is that a new turn of events? Could this do anything for me?

By the way, I'd like to finally thank the contributors here. MayFly135s in particular . . . yours is the type of familiarity I would be hard-pressed to find anywhere else. To everyone, though . . . thank you!

Hi vegascorn dog

Yep that would be a new turn of events. I emailed a mate of mine in the UK about it a month or so ago.

M

Anyone ever converted a FAA instructor rating to a CASA one?

Mayfly,

Cheers mate. Great post.

I think I'll just do some time building in the U.S.
and get my ratings here.

If you've been here since 07 you'd be aware of the Australian Yobo.

Jet A Knight- your a d&@? Head. Fair Dinkum.


.

VegasCorndog,

It may be worth looking to see if your wife holds a qualification that will help get the family a visa on her merits. Then you, as a dependent, can usually work wherever you like (as long as she maintains her employment).

FRQ CB