straight in approaches
 

officially, what are the rules regarding stright in approaches at an airfield thats a CTAF ALA.

Had an incident at an ALA where a pilot was conducting a straight in approach on a 5 mile final and they got on the radio and said dont...

COmmercially i would prefer a straight in approach to get the thing on the ground as quick as possible

Biz

I must say I am suprised that a commercial pilot can't find this themselves, however here are the relevant sections:

http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/.../1_1_1-112.pdf Paragraph 64.6 (Page 82 of the PDF)

who got on the radio and said don't?.

Don't what???

Was this another pilot saying don't to the aircraft on final? Since when (with the exception of emergency situation) do we get on the radio and instruct another pilot what/what not to do???

Im not going to say the airfield but someone was there at the aeroclub and heard the pilots call..... got into an aircraft called the aircraft and said please join the circuit no straight in approach. The pilot did as requested relunctantly...

WHen skydivers are in operation well then thats a different story but aircraft would hear the transmissioin before getting there...

Jetstar1 I can find that out myself and i knew those rules but i was wondering if i was missing something here...

Not sure what the "don't" person was thinking, but I guess requesting a person not to do a straight in is completely ok. I also think that the airborne aircraft could've said, "sorry, we're doing a straight in anyway" and THAT, also, would've been completely ok.

The AIPs state (further to our learned colleagues points above...and which you undoubtedly already know) that straight in traffic shall give way to circuit traffic on base or final.

Anyway, I don't think you missed something...I think, perhaps, the person who made the radio call didn't completely understand the rules. Nice of the inbound aircraft to comply, but he certainly wasn't under any legal obligation to do so.

HP

Under the circumstances described, I would have used my own judgement, assessed the situation - and completed the straight-in!

Dr:cool:

So the guy on the ground said dont conduct a straight in? Who does he think he was. If your flying and want to conduct a straight in via the rules set out in jepss (for us IFR guys) then do it. Conducting a straight in approach is often a less time consuming, fuel saving, safter option for us IFR RPT ops PROVIDING everyone tells us there in the circuit. Not always the case !!. But if the PIC wants to conduct a straight in he can, the skydiver can wait...and if it was a RPT acft the skydiver would have to wait a further 15mins before he can drop.

Just PERHAPS.....

I can think of one CTAF ALA that

1) Is at risk of closure/curtailed ops due to complaints of noise
2) Has a 'fly neighbourly' advice to try and avoid (1) above
3) Has a PUBLISHED account of such in ERSA
4) Has PPR in big letters in ERSA.
5) Is privately/club owned/operated/maintained.

Perhaps this airfield is fed up with noise complaints due due 'visiting' pilots from elsewhere NOT getting PPR, Upsetting the neighbours and endangering its ongoing existence.

This may not be the airfield that you refer to, but such a place exists, and CLEARLY instructs pilots to avoid straight in approaches unless operationally required (which would be rare)

I agree with the Dr. Complete the approach unless the was a VALID reason for not doing so. Then when on the ground, find the clown who made the radio call and tell him not to interrupt you when you are busy. Such calls are at the least bad airmanship and could be construed as unlawful interferance.

yeah ok all very vaild points. I told the pilot not to listen to him but I wasnt there and i only know of this by speaking to the pilot and the guy at the airfield after it all happened.

He did as told in order to keep the piece so when he went in to pay the landing fee's there wasnt going to be any problems and a fight breaks out

Bizz

Maybe its like Camden. Read the ERSA , "3 legs of cct must be flown". Been there done that before. :O

or it could be Merridan.... there are plently of airports out there where they dont want you to use straight in approaches.

Your dicing with death out there if you do.. trust me

"Your dicing with death out there if you do.. trust me"

With all due respect - I think that is complete rubbish!

If a straight-in approach is carried out within the rules, as below:

"CAR 166 Operations in vicinity of a non-controlled aerodrome
(3) The pilot in command of an aircraft may carry out a straight-in approach to a non-controlled aerodrome only if:
(a) the aircraft is equipped with serviceable radio; and
(b) the pilot broadcasts the intention to do so on the VHF frequency in use at the aerodrome; and
(c) before starting the approach, the pilot determines wind direction and runways in use; and
(d) the pilot carries out all manoeuvring, to establish the aircraft on final approach, at least 5 miles from the threshold of the landing runway intended to be used; and
(e) the pilot gives way to any other aircraft established and flying in the circuit pattern at the aerodrome."

Compliance with the last point will take care of the busy circuit issue!

Dr :cool:

PS: Like much in aviation - stick within the rules and you will probably be OK!

Once again I find myself agreeing the with the FTDK.

bodex666 - I agree less time in the circuit equals less time to hit another aircraft - ACCURATE, CONCISE, TIMELY communication is the key. The 5nm requirement increases the chances that if you're in a faster aircraft you'll have to complete a circuit if there is a slower aircraft ain front on a straight in approach - IMHO 3.5nm would be a better distance - I would be interested in your thoughts.

One thing that confuses me - how is joining upwind quieter than completing a straight in approach?:confused: More time flying equals more noise. If there is an area that should not be flown over say B020 due noise abatement then it should be published that way.

W

Question that I've always thought about...

RPT Turoprop/Jet is conducting straight in approach. Other lighties conducting circuit to land. Who has right of way?

I fully understand this part..
(e) the pilot gives way to any other aircraft established and flying in the circuit pattern at the aerodrome.

But doesn't it also say in the CAR's that smaller aircraft should give way to larger aircraft? :confused:

I don't believe it does. Everyone is equal. At a past operation I worked at, we occasionally had problems with an unnamed jet operator, trying to tell us to 'hold out there until we land'. Needless to say, it went down like a lead fart, and more often than not we'd refuse to do so, and continue on our merry way. Always worked out that we'd create little, if any, disruption to their service.

Just because you're flying around in a 70 tonne metal tube, doesn't mean you have automatic right over 2.5 tonne metal tube, :ugh:.

Airmanship can change it slightly though. But that's out of courtesy of the PIC, not because "they're bigger than us".

morno

Was this ALA 43 nm north of sydney??

Coral,

Please read the rules before you go flying. :ugh:

Case 1
Refer CAR 1988 Subparagraph 166 (3) (e)
approach to a non-controlled aerodrome only if:
the circuit pattern at the aerodrome.

Case 2
Refer CAR 1988 Paragraph 162 (5) & (8)
there is no apparent risk of collision with other aircraft.
Refer CAR 1988 Subparagraph 166 (2) (f)
vicinity of a non-controlled aerodrome must:
(f) to the extent practicable, land and take off into the wind; and

In both of these cases the rules are quite clear on who has to give way.

W

Morno / Cost Index

Actually gliders and the lower aircraft have right of way (which will probably be the lighty)
Refer CAR 1988 Paragraphs (6) & (7)
heavier-than-air aircraft shall give way to gliders.

Good airmanship though may result in the right of way aircraft doing a little extra sightseeing.:ok:

W

Just tell him to power up and go around Werbil, :}

Why do I have it in my head that either the AIP or the CASA promotional bullsh*t talks about aircraft making straight in approaches must be established on final by 5nm and give way to a/c established on BASE?

Have I lost my marbles or is this written somewhere? The implication being that having called a 5 mile final, anyone on downwind is expected to give way?

Will go home tonight and see if I can find it.....

UTR.

Yep, aircraft on straight-in must give way to base / downwind traffic. Seems silly that you can be on a 1.5 mile final and have to give way because the nut-bag on base turned in front of you.

Okay, deep breath! It has been a while since I needed to look at circuit rules.

There is a conflict inherent in the AIP. Yes it does state in effect that outside five miles on the straight in; base traffic for the same runway is number one for landing. (not downwind traffic)

Also, in effect it states that aircraft conducting a straight in do not have priority over established circuit traffic.

To me this has meant that if four, five or even one aircraft are conducting a traditional type circuit onto Rwy 18, it is not on to commence a straight in approach to Rwy 36 regardless of whether the circuit aircraft are upwind, downwind, base or final. YOU KNOW IT MAKES SENSE.

How about this. A Tiger Moth with one Com and no navaids joins upwind to get a good look at the sock on a two and a half thousand metre runway. Seven kts headwind on 18, so he broadcasts joining overhead for 18. Meanwhile our hero at fifteen miles in his fast boat (with auto-met) stands on principle and announces intention to conduct 'five mile final' onto 36.

If there was a prize for subsequent airmanship in the above example, who would you put your money on?

Spotlight
 

Thanks - and I think you've clarified what I was trying to say - but I having read the AIP I was barking up the wrong tree anyway.

The conflicting statement that straight in approaches must give way to circuit traffic is, I think, designed to prevent a conflicting straight in on the opposite runway - i.e a straight in must give way to all other traffic so theoretically could go in if the only circuit traffic had just turned crosswind but in practice can't really. ENR-64.6 prohibits the scenario you proposed pretty comprehensively.

Having re-read AIP ENR64.6.4 however, there is no point at which you get automatic priorty on a straight-in and at all times you must not get in the way of aircraft on base or final.

QNH1013 - it seems that you're correct - and relying on the airmanship of others makes me nervous!

UTR.

Fortaildriver whatever your name is.. I think you need to re-read my post. I do straigh in approaches on a day to day basis as normal ops. Hell they dont want me to circle whenever it can be avoided.

Like I said obviously you have never tired to do a straight in approach with a circuit full of half fluent learning chinese students..... trust me you are dicing with death.

Bula

"you have never tired to do a straight in approach with a circuit full of half fluent learning chinese students..... "

No, can't say I have .... but I have shared the airspace with some ethnic Lear drivers!

"trust me you are dicing with death"

You are probably right!

Dr:cool:

1. The bloke who said ‘don’t’ .. had want to consider the consequences of effectively issuing an ‘instruction’ …. Had the subsequent circuit (additional 3-5min in the terminal area) collected the light blue See-bee on downwind (hypothetically) ….. mate, if the lawyers could corroborate who said ‘don’t’ ….. that is a worlda hurt for the rest of his days!
2. FTDK, werbil, absolutely correct … subject to ‘use of some degree of cranial matter’ and assessment of traffic early …It is also incumbent on existing circuit aircraft to consider fitting the turn onto base once the straight in is in sight or gives you a distance to run when you are ready for base …. I mean ferked if I want to be putting along at 70kts craning around trying to see the big faster bugga trying to mow me down from behind on Dwind, Base or Final, particularly if I am below in front!
3. I’ll bet my left nut, many of these sorts of events are due to frequency management (more than one ), unheard or no broadcasts, and time in flight between ATS and CTAF (time available to acquire SA)
4. As coral said, at busy aerodromes (including firkin CTAF Airshows .. ferchristsake), a straight-in ‘could’ be lethal. Targets approaching from left AND right base despite the rules .. most of whom will be looking into the turn onto final, not out board along the extended final leg … equally, flying dodgems around 4 legs with god knows how many targets to hit! … if it is that busy why would you not invest in 3-6mins and stay out the way (or above) until yer have the picture or it quietens down … cheap insurance! Seen smart folks (mostly IFR fast singles and twins) do it many times during airshow arrivals bursts!
.
hmmm ….. depends on the cloud base too I suppose ….. :ooh: eeeeeeeew .. that brings back some bad memories!:oh:

Scurvy.D.Dog

Amen.

W

no one seems to understand I HAVE THE BIGEST D%$k.
Now that thats clear, I have two points. Pilot conducting straight in,during the quoting/route plannng process for said flight would have worked out the price based on conducting a standard circuit, so doing a straight in would be a big plus to the boss, however joining a standard circuit would no send them broke. True I do have the bigest D%$K. Now that said,172 doing circuits for training or charter guy on a mission, dont you guys want the hours anyway? so extending downwind would be a plus for you, why not take it, anything for the extra 0.1 hrs

"however joining a standard circuit would no send them broke. "

true but it will add up over 12 months. Besides its about getting the pax on the ground quickly. Other operators might be different but thats out policy.

I dont know about you but if im flying from Birdsville to Warnervale by the time i am starting to get close to Warnervale i would want to get on the ground as quick as i can.

(id need a smoke bad)
Bizz

Or another way of thinking is, not that it adds up over 12 months but, each straight in might save you money but at what cost to all arond you. not having a go at anyone, I can see both sides. but if you cant afford to join a standard circuit sould you be in operation. sure it adds up, no question about that.

forgot to add, would you realy be that keen to land at WVA

On The Hillside, Your lying about one thing, It is me who has the biggest #$%^. But you are spot on, who for the sake of 0.1 if that would play with traffic in the pattern. Do a friggin circuit thats what it is designed for, to facilitate traffic flow. No traffic, too good, do a straight in. Heaps of traffic go with the flow and add those hours to the log book.

IIIIIIIIIII think i did forget to say that the specific time in question there was no traffic in the area....

Bizz.

UTR,

I believe when we use to have MBZ's only aircraft on BASE OR FINAL had right of way over an aircraft on five mile final. When MBZ's were abolished the rules were changed so that any aircraft in the CIRCUIT had right of way over an aircraft on five mile final.

i think we all need to use our brains on this matter, i commonly conduct straight in approaches to aerodromes and a few things i consider.

1. If its +/- 30 degrees from heading to runway alignment
2. i never straight in to unfamiliar aerodrome, generally i would like to see the layout once before i come barreling in.
3. make it clear to all others what i am doing, ie "maneuvering to intercept a 5 mile final"
4. an remember there is no harm in using plain english to explain your position, ie if another a/c in on base or late downwind say that you will join behind them number 2 or do you mind if i go number 1. This generally removes all confusion about who has right of way and what the other guy is doing, sort it out before your wings touch

things that pi$$ me off are Jabiru's with no radio conducting straight in approaches (and you know who you are)

DS