Alteon or Qantas?
 

Hi Guys and Gals

I have a Virgin Interview coming up and looking in to both endorsements for the 737. Can anyone who has done any of these courses let me know what they think of either course. Qantas is a little longer and operates to Virgin SOPS and does a ground school but they only do a classic endorsement with NG differences. Alteon is about $3000 cheaper but they do it all on the NG, ground school is just a computer based training. If anyone can shed any light would be greatly appreciated. I live in sydney so its a half way point to each.

Thanks:)

Sorry shmeagle I cant help u, Im going thru the same dilemma, i just got in and still weighing up which one is best to do, so i will be interested to hear comments too...

I was happy with my Alteon B717 endorsement. It wasn't the best endorsement process I've been through but it was much better than the worst.

The CBT was full of good info, it was sad that the monotone delivery was so soporific that I don't know of anyone who didn't fall asleep and have to use the rewind function, several times. :8 A good chalk-and-talker is better but there aren't so many of them around. The CBT covered all the things a pilot needs to know but missed the nice to know bits.

The Sim time was generic SOP, so one had to forget company SOPs, come to terms with different SOPs for the endorsement process, then revert. In the case of the 717, there was no effective FMS trainer, which was one of the negative issues.

Hi all,
In response to your question.
I was in the same position as you about two months ago. I was initially interested in doing it at Qantas as they use VB procedures as well as the fact that they run a pretty comprehensive ground school. I rang and asked for a course on the NG and was told i had two options... either classic with diffs or wait another month for NG only. I asked to be put on NG only and was then told a couple of days later that the course would still be classic with diffs. I again asked when i could do NG only and was then told a further month again, i said "lock it in Eddie" and then a few days later again got told that "oh sorry we mislead you but it is still classic with diffs". Frustrated i asked when the next NG only course would be and was subsequently told thet MAYBE September (again no commitment on their behalf).

From this experience it was made pretty clear that Qantas was not utilising the classic sim very much at all and they were trying to stear all small fish towards the classic whilst keeping the NG for the big money overseas clients. I cannot fault them for that.. after all they are a business. Another thing to be wary of is whether or not the differences will be done internally or externally.... i am aware of one person who was told that they would have to go to HK for the sim part of the diffs course, travel at own expense.

With regard to Alteon, they are as you mentioned $3000 cheaper than Qantas... this is most likely (dont quote me) a deal between VB and Alteon to attract people towards the Alteon option. Last bit if scuttlebut i heard was that the no self funding option will involve VB purchasing large amounts of bulk sim time from Alteon. If VB chooses Alteon then they must be producing a reasonable product.

I understand your concerns regarding the CBT and not a full on ground school. However, with the manuals you receive (if you want them sent to you before the course you can arrange it) as well as the resouces you can see on the internet then there is more than enough information to give you a solid knowledge base. Yes they do the Boeing procedures only but the VB ones are not significantly different.

Also, you will be doing induction in Brisbane anyway, less stuffing around if everything is done in the one place.

Finally, i think that whether or not you are successful on the course is decided by the attitude of the candidate.... if you expect to be spoon fed then you may be in for a rude shock... but if you put in good preparation and study hard then you will make life a lot easier for yourself.

It comes down to personal choice. I chose Alteon. If you have any detailed questions pleass PM me if you like.

Safe flying! :ok:

Ratter.

Why don't you wait two months. VB are about to remove their requirement for new hire pilots to pay for their endorsement. You might end up a little bitter if you are the last to pay for your own endorsement.

Done 2 endo's at Alteon, the 717 was ok and the 320 was crap.
Surprised the QF endo dearer?? it used to be around 26-27K and sure as :mad: Alteon is'nt 23-24.:confused:

Thanks for your replies guys, Alteon about 27,000 Qantas about 30,000. Its sounding like Alteon is the way to go.

If you have to pay real money for real results go Qantas you won't regret it.

The Alteon course I did was a shambles. Go Qantas.

Isn't Virgin about to use bonding instead of pay for endorsement? Why not tell them you will wait for an intake that does not require you to self fund the training?

And what - miss out on the benefits of seniority afforded by the earlier entry?? :eek:
(OK admits ignorance - seniority probably doesn't exist in a LCC, one of those cute concepts from past airlines who actually trained pilots above and beyond the BARE MINIMUM (variable at whim) the local CASA branch might cast their glance over whenever they could tear themselves away from free drinks at the Brekky!!)

50% fail rate on upgrades at the moment so the story goes - run out of other airline trained airline experience so it seems. Ahhh, LCC's!
Couldn't see that happening could we?? :ugh:
How's that going to affect the bottom line Mr Godfrey??

And you will have to wait longer to be able to say in the pub to all the local begans - " I is an airline pilot!!"
(although I paid the company for the priviledge!) Hmmm. :E

OK - my bit of fun for the night!

I ended up with Alteon in the US as the total package was cheaper over there. EIFIS with an NG add on. Straight NG cost a fortune because everyone wants NG sim time, so they charge like wounded bulls. we could only get NG time at stupid hours of the morning, as the bigger customers got all the good slots :zzz:

Altoen's CBT WILL put you to sleep too. and the damn thing requires constant input from you, so when you fall asleep, it stops until you wake up. and there's HOURS to get through. I just kept pushing the green arrow - a ground school would have been better, but the CBT was adequate and probably keeps the costs down a bit. Good FMS trainer too, although it did have a few glitches and did things the real box wouldn't do.

good courses though. No complaints. nice holiday too :)

Qantas type rating is a better product.

Alteon are now training VB SOPs to VB trainees. There is a close liason between the two organisations and this now produces a much more streamlined transition from type rating to line training with VB. Alteon for sure:ok:

"all I can say the whole bull about swept wing,jets etc is a myth"

I would be very interested in an elaboration of this statement. There are some very big differences in the handling techniques between a light weight, straight winged single piston engined aircraft and a 737. If you are unable to recognise that, then there has been a severe shortcoming of your understanding of the training material, or the training material itself was poor. I am deeply concerned that we may be seeing a whole generation of pilots with barely the basic legislated skills required for the endorsement. Pilots with attitudes like that above will require heavy supervision by experienced captains for several years before they are competent. Do these new, rapidly expanding, carriers have that depth of supervisory experience? If not we have increased the risk to the travelling public significantly.

Ah, so alteon do train to Vb Sop's now do they, that makes a bit of difference as that was one of my concerns.

I would'nt rush, it won't be long before you don't have to pay for the endo:ok:

QF Endorsement
 

Hi Guys & Gals.

I did my NG only endorsement with QF in mid march, to be perfectly honest I am ambivalent about the endorsement, but then I hadnt heard a single positive thing about the Alteon A320 Endorsement. At the time the quoted price was $30,076 for the QF NG only, and $29,950 through Alteon.

The whole process is quite "SELF-HELP" you need to do a lot chasing yourself. And my experience with QF teaching VB procedures was that the ground instructons when doing the fix based sims just told you a few bits and pieces. There were very few VB handouts (and you dont have any VB manuals) only QF manuals. VB & QF have different options inside the planes.

The way it works is that Boeing write manuals to tell you how to fly the plane, but VB and Qantas didnt like that so they have heaps of variations to procedures scattered through their operations manuals. Trying to work out what you are supposed to do is like trying to draw teeth.

The training FO's at QF were reasonably good (varied between instructors as you would expect), but becuase they are jumping between Hong Kong Express, Japanese, Indian, VB, Jetconnect and their own QF procedures you just didnt have clarity of procedures.

I found it frustrating because we were not supposed to have access to the powerpoint presentations prior to each endorsement sim session (because its proprietry) to think about and prepare yourself for each sim session.

I guess you just need to be aware that the system isnt perfect and after you get on line their will still be a host of things which you havent been doing VB's way because squirelled away in some bulletin or OIC which you didnt know about at the time was another variation to procedure.

The ground Instructor led tutorials were helpful, the auto-flight procedures trainer was valuable at the start, but towards the end of the endorsement its finer points were just plain wrong and it had bugs in the system, so you would find yourself questioning whether the procedures trainer, or the books or the sims or you were doing it wrong. :ugh:

I havent had the opportunity to have a chat to anyone about the Alteon 737 endorsement to find out how good or bad it was.

If I had my time again I would probably just go for the first one thats available first/ or is more suitable geographically.

And as for waiting for the rumoured company sponsored endorsement's, I would be surprised if it makes any difference financially, I would expect you will be on a training wage for as long as it takes to pay off the endorsement. The main advantages will be (if it does take place) that you get tought VB way from the start, and you may not have to take all of the financial risk if you fail the check (lets not forget that with 'workchoices', bonds are now legally enforceable)

And ladies & gentlemen "GOOD LUCK!'

Jeezuz headmaster, don't even put the wear and tear on your fingertips :rolleyes:

"woop woop, :mad:wit alert, :mad:wit alert "

The three most dangerous pilots that I have ever flown with all fit the profile of having an ego much greater than their ability. A measure of humility and caution will serve the new GA to jet airline pilot well.

Low experience in the right hand seat is not a problem per se, but if you want to reduce the amount of risk in a flying operation, you would need to counter this low experience with adequate supervision. This is not an unqualified statement, it is a common risk management strategy in any complex, high risk operation. In times of skills shortages, experience levels will drop, and systems must be employed to reduce risk.

Anyone who has moved from a light aircraft operation to a jet transport environment via an airline type endorsement still has quite a lot to learn. Working out that you do not know everything and have much to learn should be the new pilots first lesson.