Chuck - as usual, your intelligent, thought-out and experienced opinions are a pleasure and an education. Thanks.:D

Chumbu chuckles
 

I will be starting ab initio training in January, sights set on ATPL.

Any chance you're going to open your own flying school? :ok:

Training I can buy by the truck load, experience like yours ... not so easy to find.

Thanks for the posts.

ABX

Chuckles,
Serious question - have you written anything of note? Any articles or even books?
What you scratch out here is interesting, entertaining and informative. You could do some stuff in industry magazines etc... if so inclined.
You and some of your fellow PPruners could put together a great book.
Serious.
Di :)

Try a Google search for 'Pelicans Perch':ok:

Don´t confuse John Deakin at Pelican´s Perch with Chimbu Chuckles at Pprune. Different characters. Both good gen men though.

So has anybody heard what happened yet?

From the ATSB weekly summary

During the takeoff from runway 27 in
crosswind conditions, the aircraft was
unable to generate sufficient power to
sustain flight. The aircraft was destroyed
when it impacted water during the forced
landing.

Something wrong.
 

Something is very wrong here. Aircraft do not behave like that for no reason.

You are so right. I'm sure the ATSB weekly summary isn't the end of the investigation...

:rolleyes:

I am assuming they mean the engines were "unable to generate sufficient power to sustain flight".

Only two things I can think of that would result in this. Mechanical failure in both engines or fuel starvation to both engines.

Hello

firstly, I am not a pilot, merely a friend of one of those in the crash.
I found this forum whilst doing a search for more infomation.

Here is the email I got from said friend after the incident. Some of the
speculation on here, I find a bit off to be be perfectly honest. Blaming
the pilot without knowing what actually happened is a disgrace in my opinion.

[/quote="c"]
Hi Everyone,
Just to let you know that Wade and I and my cousins Jody and Matthew and their partners Gary and Kym, were in a light aircraft plane crash on Sunday. We all survived but crashed just after take off from about 500m. The plane lost power and dropped like a stone and snapped in two. Wade and I were pinned in the wrekage and had to be cut out of it. Wade was airlifted to hospital and has a huge gah to his right leg that went to the muscle. He will need plastic surgery and a lot of care for about a month. We both had our legs crushed and have cuts and bruises all over, but we are alive and didn't think we could survive. The mental scars will torture us for a lot longer. Hopefully the link above will tell you the story from the news point of view. The pictures of the plane are horrendous and we made headline news and the front page! The things you have to do to become famous!
Anyway,
Will email soon if this bloody thing will work. Having problems with gmail, hotmail and work mail so have given up!
x
Claire

[/quote]

Regards

Matthew

WOW, Muttley. :yuk:

Easy to throw stones isn't it?

Lets see you write an informative post that might teach the green horns something constructive.

Or perhaps, as your bio suggests, you waddled in early this morning after a big night and thought, "A bit of PPRuNe therapy might sober me up."

There was one good bit in your post, this

made me laugh.

Muttley, f@rk you're good.
Has it ever occurred to you to read your post before submitting? Whaddya say your age was again?
Wish I was 17.

May I respectfully suggest you re-read this thread because I don't think you've quite got the gist of it.

Go easy on Muttley, there is an element of truth to what he says.

there is truth. I think chimbu has flown fast jets for two long personally. I would hate to have been the bloke at the controls on this day. Although personally i would have tried to fly straight for as long as i could until i had some positive climb, rather than turning back, but then who knows what you would do under stress.

At least nothing more tragic happened!


4S

Party, C400 series, PA31 of sorts... climbing on one, fully loaded on a hot day? Yeah right - Get real. :sad: :(

Finally we have some realistic pilots! Chimbu, when was the last time you flew a clapped out charter multi piston heavily loaded on a hot day? Like Muttley said, it appears they have definately weatherd a lot since you flew them.:hmm:

Mutley, reality thanks.

Lets get the manuals out and see what each type could do out of Rottness.
Queen Air, B58, Duchess, Cieftain, Navajo, Seminole, C404 / 402 / 340 / 310 / 303, Ac500 Aerostar ect all without vortex generator mods.

To keep it simple lets go with 15 degree's, Mtow and efato after gear / flap retraction.
From this we can progress to the effects of elev temp ect.

Then we can plot whether we could get back around to land or go to Perth to land.

This will help those who are flying twins older than them selves.

hmmm...I thought I had made it clear enough I was speaking generally and trying not to pre judge the Rottnest Island accident:ugh:

Muttley you're entitled to your opinion...I disagree.

I have had engine failures in C182, C185, Bn2, C402, Aerostar and Bae 146.

All ended well.

Never mentioned anything about Top Guns. Yes we have all seen pilots pass checks when they shouldn't have...but as to me passing people I didn't deem competent to carry my family?

Not one, not EVER.

Not even close to being the only...when you have been sacked as a CP (twice) for standing up for what is right then you come back and lecture me....until then I would really rather you didn't call me a liar:rolleyes:

Mutts
 

Good on you mate, you do read different when you're off the sauce.

:ok:

ABX

Appology accepted:ok:

When I write on these subjects in pprune it is based on long experience...and I absolutely stand by what I write.

It is a mistake to assume that those of us who went before had some sort of nirvana like version of GA in our day or that we all flew these aircraft when they were shiny and new...certainly I flew some shiny new aircraft in my youth...but most were as old and worn as anything you see these days. Often our maintenance was really good but sometimes it was abismal:ugh:

Through 7000 hrs GA (every minute of which I loved) and 5000+ airline and corporate jet I think it is safe to say I have seen most wrinkles and more than my share of truly stupid, incompetent pilots and truly nasty, dishonest management.

No one has found a new way to crash for well over 60 years..it's just the same old ways trotted out again and again.:ugh:

In have lost close to 40 friends killed in GA accidents in the 26 years I have been flying. That was why I took the attitude I took to training and to some, actually most, but not all, of the management I have experienced. I have paid a higher price than most for my approach to the responsibilities of being a trainer, checker or management pilot....to the extent that I will never again accept a management pilot position.

When not even CASA is interested in safety you just give up and do the best you can in your operation and let others worry about such things.

Every year a handful of CPs get sacked when CASA refuses to support them against missmanagement...i will never put myself, or my family, in that position again.:mad:

With the conditions you state above except with 20 degrees (sorry don't have 15 handy) BE55 2.6% or 260fpm, BE58 2.9% or 290fpm.

Maaaate - perhaps you should have chucked out the slabs?

Di :p

Max weight?
 

Muttly
Empty weight for a P68 is about 1325 kg, and max TO is 1960 kg. (Max landing weight is less than that)

So if you had "yourself and five fat guys, like you" that's about 660 kg. I presume you had some fuel.

Looks like you exceeded both the max take off weight, and the max landing weight.

No wonder the poor thing did not want to fly on one.


I would not really blame Mussolini.

The Empty Weight for that P68 was 1300 kg in 1983 with the Basic Weight of 1313 kg. Not sure of mods since that time.
MTOW 1990 kg / MLW 1890 kg

Baron driver, thanks, some facts to start with.
By memory I thought the 58 was 284 fpm at ISA so 290 at 20 sounds right.

The Baron had a greater R of C than the P68 so he didn't have much to play with.

Ok how about the other types.

What was the lesson learned?
 

I had been following this thread years ago (because I am an interested P68 driver out of YPJT). And slightly surprised why nothing more than a summary report was issued by the ATSB given that there was a hull loss and six seriously injured people. I feel there has not been any clear education about what happened. Quiet and polite questions about lessons to be learned have drawn a blank.

In the summary: "the aircraft was unable to generate sufficient power to sustain flight", could have a multitude of causes, from mishandling by the PIC through to mechanical problems, or even meteorological factors. Was there ever a take home message?

I have flown into and out of Rottnest (YRTI) many many times in the P68, I am also a glider pilot, and former dinghy racer, so I am very aware of micrometeorology. You need to be aware of the local factors at YRTI (RWY 27/09). There is a low range of sand hills less than 0.3 km to the south of the strip, and these can produce quite marked mechanical turbulence on short final to RWY 27, and also on initial climb-out on RWY 27 when a howling southerly sea breeze is blowing (known as the "Fremantle Doctor", can blow in excess of 25 knots and usually comes from 240 deg and then backs to 190 as the afternoon progresses). Max demonstrated crosswind for the P68 is 25 kts. I have landed at YRTI in conditions approaching max crosswind on RWY 27, you have to be switched on, it is a bumpy ride, and reject the approach sooner rather than later.

My own conservative personal minimums for the P68 is not loading more than max landing weight (yes it is different from MTOW) when going to Rotto, and paying close attention to the loading envelope, you have to load the P68 from back to front, otherwise the C of G is too far forward. Know the expected SE performance for the day and plan for that in your take off safety brief. Use the POH, it is actually your friend. If the forecast weather exceeds the handling parameters of the a/c, don't go. Much better to be on the ground wishing you were in the air, rather than being in the air wishing you were on the ground.

Date 12/11/2006
ATSB Ref #: 200606756
Category: Accident
Location: Rottnest Island, Aerodrome WA
Type: Partenavia Costruzioni Aeronautiche S.p.A P.68 (was VH-IYK)
Operation: Private
Op subtype: Unknown
Airspace: CTAF
Class:G
Summary: During the takeoff from runway 27 in crosswind conditions, the aircraft was unable to generate sufficient power to sustain flight. The aircraft was destroyed when it impacted water during the forced landing.

YRTI Map reference:
https://www.google.com.au/maps/@-32..../data=!3m1!1e3

Stay safe and well everyone!

Must be a record for a thread resurrection!

P68. Rottnest
 

Two things that involve the P68.
One is that they have a 25 kt crosswind limit. High.
Two they require some 20 degrees of flap to take off otherwise they stick to the runway.

https://www.baaa-acro.com/crash/cras...ottnest-island

I know nothing about this event - just Googled the above.

Thread resurrection aside I was surprised to find that a less than cursory search of the ATSB site revealed nothing at all about this.

As a potential user of a P68 it'd be good to know if this was just another result of the P68's infamous fuel system, a bird strike, or something else that I could learn from? With all due respect to baaa, without something from the ATSB I'm not all that enlightened...

FP.

I'm not surprised by that statement, given the excessive time normally taken by the ATSB to now issue reports, and the standard of those reports.

:{

Hi All,
The accident we are talking about was not a bird strike (Date 12/11/2006 ATSB Ref #: 200606756 "During the takeoff from runway 27 in crosswind conditions, the aircraft was unable to generate sufficient power to sustain flight. The aircraft was destroyed when it impacted water during the forced landing.").

It is still not clear why the aircraft was "unable to generate sufficient power to sustain flight". Taken on face value suggests some form of power plant failure, but why? The causes are multudinous. Mixtures set incorrectly? Prop pitch set incorrectly? Plug fouling? Fuel pump failure? Was the fuel boost pump on? Were phase one checks followed when the EFATO occurred? (This would've sorted out any mixture or prop problems). If there were six on board, was it in C of G? Was the plane above MTOW? How full were the tanks? Doing rapid changes in heading whilst taxying with less than 1/4 tanks can lead to fuel starvation because the fuel line ports become uncovered as the fuel sloshes about in the tanks. This is documented in the POH.

There have been two other incidents of P.68 involved in bird-strike at YRTI (25-Oct-2005 ATSB #: 200505499 and 23-Dec-2005 ATSB #: 200506892). The information on the link provided by #110 is incorrect: (please don't refer to: https://www.baaa-acro.com/crash/cras...ottnest-island).

From #109: "Two they require some 20 degrees of flap to take off otherwise they stick to the runway."
With due respect, I disagree. The take off flap for the P68 is 1st stage at 15 deg, no more. I have found the handling characteristics of the P68 to be very docile. When trimmed correctly for take off, it is no more sticky than anything else I've flown. Also helps if you load the P68 correctly. Climbs away nicely on two engines.

I also found something in #66 to be interesting about adding 10 kts to the blue line speed as a decision point, my main concern about that is that it delays your decision so you are further down the runway and have less stopping options in front of you. I would much rather reject a take-off earlier in the piece. I know about speed decay, I have done winch launching with launch failure in gliders!

WRT #112 "I'm not surprised by that statement, given the excessive time normally taken by the ATSB to now issue reports, and the standard of those reports." I think that 16 years is long even for ATSB standards.

MALT68, where did you find the info below?
It doesn't show up in an ATSB search. Nor do the birdstrike incidents you mentioned!

Hi Capt Fathom, no worries,

I found the data here: (ATSB National Aviation Occurrence Database: Detailed Data Search)
ATSB National Aviation Occurrence Database: Detailed Data Search

I used the filter terms:
Filter by state, airport or location: Rottnest Island Aerodrome
I used a 25 km radius of search.
Date of search: 01/01/2000 until present.

Generates an excel spreadsheet for you to review/search at leisure.

I hope this was helpful. 👍

It depends on the length of the runway but the simple fact remains that a light twin is not certified to get airborne in the event of an engine failure on takeoff. Blue line +10 gives you a bit of time to get yourself sorted but the biggest threat to your operation is your ability to overcome the startle factor and performing the vital actions quickly and correctly. Overrunning the runway at 50 kts but three wheels on the ground is still a better option than getting below Vmca at 200'.

Thanks Lookleft (@ #116),

I am sure that if you got a whole load of light twin drivers in one room, debates about decision points for EFATO would rage. Agreed the "WTF is happening?" factor is another rich vein of discussion. I believe that being paranoid (think Murphy's law) during the take off and having an appropriate take off safety brief is very helpful. No doubt there is another thread about this waiting to be resurrected. Sorry for thread drift here...

Nevertheless, is anyone any the wiser as to what happened to VH-IYK to result in "the aircraft was unable to generate sufficient power to sustain flight"?