MoFo, yes, and the sooner that AsA takes over the sooner you will have to pay for their services. I believe the RAAF doesn't charge for APP/TWR, just DIA for landing charges?? Anyway, what would you like to see done differently? I'd be interested to hear as I am an-ex 'clown' now turned AsA enroute controller.

And on a personal note, Churchall, you are a complete tosser! Cheers,

NFR.

Balding Eagle,

See Missy's reply. And again, I emphasise, get yourself teed up for a visit to Sydney Approach.

And the Freedon numbers thing, ATCs never give vectors without a bloody good reason. Controller amusement is not one of them.

Missy,

Thanks for the reply to BE's question. As a Brissie enroute/arrivals controller for Brisbane southern sectors (Byron Group), Sydney Approach procedures are outside my knowledge and experience.

MoFo,

Darwin RAAF controllers do a pretty good job with the equipment they've been given. Have a look at their new tower cab and tell me it was designed by an ATC. Looks like a junior engineer's dream. The ATC centre is also a junior engineer's dream, just looks battle hardened.


DP

I understand the clearance limits system in the US means minimum work for ATC when the dung hits the ventilator. Instead of the "general holding" button going 'ding', the flow screaming "hold fakkin everybody" or trying to believe Maestro's yellow numbers the pilot is given a clearance limit, and when he gets there holds.

Over there everybody is an approach controller managing sequences all over the shop.

I don't see how this can be more efficient, most of the work in holding is setting up aircraft in trail so they can be shuffled into approach order and stacked when they get to the fix. Do they set everybody up vertically for the fixes?

I guess we'll all learn about this in stage 3:uhoh:

Thank you Winstun, for showing me we have also some of the most stupid and ignorant people in the world.

I dont like coppers much either, but I don't think they are the worst in the world because they wont let me drive at 240 km/h down the wrong side of the Tulla either. Just because ATC enforce the rules, doesn't mean
a. they make them, or
b. they like them

Oz controllers the worst?
Nah, it's only the system they have to work and secure their jobs with. Bugger!
I'm sure that the APP people know the difference between 10 and 5nm separation (and then some); unfortunately they are not permiited (MATS) to apply it.
Now take for example ORD or DFW - 5nm REALLY means 3nm - if you can't do, go to ARTCC - same general rules for Oz but if you have to move metal (a la USA), you have to ratch it up a gear.
Having said that, Oz ATC rules do make for inefficient flight profiles - even LHR (you know - Mary Poppins, bad wx and even worse food) seems bloody efficient by comparison. (Actually it is - they run you to 2.5nm separation).
Thankfully for both sides of the microphone, Oz FIR is not too often visited.

;)

Erm, WH seems to suggest our TMA has a standard of 5nm, and if they don't use that to run the acft 3nm apart they're pussies. Their standard is actually 3nm and they use it, but the limitation on final is the runway rate, not the radar standard. Same goes for the 5nm standard ENR.

Do the aviators and aviation powers-to-be out there really want us to use a 5nm radar standard as an excuse to run the acft 3nm apart? Is thinking like this that caused a radar standard to NOT appear in MATS for decades (until quite recently)? Did we buggar it up by publishing the standards?

I would have to say that Oz would be one of the best. Oz ATC have a great reputation. Especially our Military breed who have been in places like Somalia, East Timor, Baghdad and Kabul, to name recent phew, they are number on the requisition file for O/S duty from Other countries like USA etc.
As for comparisons to O/S well they are away by a mile compared to Central America, Carribean even dare I say it Mexican. Those who critisise without taking a look out the window cant compare really.

Sheep

Re Separation Standards

What a crock..

Ha, ha, ha. I just about cak’d myself to death in fits reading this thoughtful post. This glowing “reputation” appears to only exist amongst the people in question, along with a few of their nondescript sidekicks. Certainly not the world view….that look on in astonished amusement. Military controllers are known the world over to be well below par, add in the Oz factor, and you have a very, very poor standard. I would imagine the dregs you refer to manning these hotspots are there only due to the fact others would not be so foolish. It is well known most people join the military because they are losers and have few other options. Flattering yourself by a comparison to a scattering of underdeveloped, very poor, non-English speaking nations is a bit of a wank, putting it mildly. At the start of this topic, I requested comments from accomplished licensed pilots. With a few exceptions, all this nonsense we hear are from the culprits themselves, along with few second rate, bottom of the barrel, never made the big time, pilots. It might have had a (slightly) better class of audience if the moderator had left the topic in the appropriate (intended) forum.

Churchall

Or should I call you “Winstun”. As usual you have no idea what you are talking about. You should try some of the ATC centers to the North of Australia before mouthing off the way you do. India is a shocker. ATC priority in Singapore is based from what I can tell on the country you are from. SQ first, all the rest second. North America is OK, NZ is OK, and HK is generally OK when the Aus/US/SA controllers are on. Russia is getting better, Europe is a pain in the butt and most of Asia leaves a lot to be desired. Oh and don’t get me started on Africa. It is a breath of fresh air to reach the Aus FIR at Bupta, Gutev, Torex or Opaba southbound because for most of the night we have been providing our own separation, as that received from ATC has to be treated with great caution. Of course you wouldn’t know this because you are still pretending to fly your FS2004 aren’t you?:yuk:

Churchall, if you got little response from pilots, would you not think that they do not share your view and could not be bothered posting to such a blatent wind-up? ATCs responded becuase they are sick of the way yourself and people such as Dick Smith constantly bring their profesionalism into question. It's like saying that all people with names starting with C (like you) are fools (like you). True for some, but not for the majority.

Also, can you provide a list of ATC centres/TCUs/TWRs (civil and military) that you have visited and the suggestions you made to improve things.

Can you also please quote your source for the way MIL ATC are selected for overseas assignment? (You are wrong by the way). I know plenty of ex-RAAF controllers working in various counties around the world that specifically recruited them because of their training. These include (but are not limited to) NZ, UK, East Timor, Mid-East, Canada and Switzerland, not to mention AsA.

All the best with your aviation career. If it fails, you could become Dick Smith's PA and spokesman! Cheers,

NFR.

Why do you all bite?

You have to laugh. Then again, it is true. Then there are the Brits, who are worster, then Jeddah who are worstest.

Churchall and his Technicolour Dream Tripe. I should have known by those outlandish colours and childish bantering it was you Wintsun. Obviously the bridge I asked you to jump off wasnt high enough. Your tanatlizing comments make you sound asthough you are in good intillect. But alas if the masses only knew you are pleb worthless of extistance on Society. FIND ANOTHER BRIDGE MY SON BUT THIS TIME MAKE WORTH IT!

Sheep:O :p :mad: :} :yuk: :yuk: :yuk: :{

Since this was put on the ATC section, I had to come and take a look <G>... In the US three miles is the standard in terminal airspace, and in certain conditions can go to two and a half on final. Of course if you are doing visuals, it is as close as the flight crew wants to do <G>...

As to enroute if you want five miles, true for the most part that is our minimum... But to set aside one arugument, the enroute washouts go to terminal not the other way around <BG>....:E

regards

Scott

I have to say, it shows how much Winstun/Churchall knows about ATC, if he thinks the smaller the standard being ran between aircraft the more proficient the controller. In Australia some of the best controllers I saw, were the guys working the fully procedural airspace across the middle of Australia, running a minimum 20DME standard between aircraft, up to a whopping 10 minutes between 2 non Rnav approved aircraft. Just because the distance required between their customers was large, did not mean the service provided was any less.

As Scott said, in the rest of the world, the concesus is generally, the most difficult stream of ATC to work is Area/Enroute, then comes Approach, and then Tower. So again because Area is running 5NM (and most likely aiming to keep them at least a comfortable 7 or 8 NM's apart due to the fact each of their aircraft are doing 7 or 8 NM's a minute!), rather than Approach, who with their screen on a scale at least a quarter the size of Area, can happily run 3NM, does not mean Area are any lesser controllers than Approach.

Again I know, Ferris, I shouldn't be answering the wind up, but I think there may be other pilots out there who may benefit from understanding a little of what we do. I echo the comments of others on here in saying all pilots should make it a part of their yearly check to visit the local ATC centre, to understand, that just because there is no R/T going on, does not mean the controller is not working his butt off, just as doing Jumpseat famil flights told us the same thing about pilots.

ANSA, I can't help myself...

"...just because there is no R/T going on, does not mean the controller is not working his butt off..."

Thank goodness for those gym rooms downstairs in the TAAATS buildings.

Getting nostalgic for the Saturday afternoon "strip-o-lanche" ANSA??

To be fair, Scott's comrades who don't wash out to the TMA are providing the same TMA service EVERYWHERE.

Say what you like about Churchall, he has all the best gear .....



http://www.users.on.net/~drew.dickso.../flightSim.jpg

"Centre, this is Churchall request clearance"

"Churchall, this is your mother, clearance not available, go to your room!"

"OHHHH, Mum! I wanna play with the pretty planes!"

Fool.