For the thinker in GA! In defence of the employer
OK, well that is two people I know of getting into Virgin (only one as flight crew though), and I will admit that I made an easy enough assupmtion as to "who" each was here, and therefore a mistake.
I apologise, and I am trully surprised to read such words from someone I'd never pick in a million years as being like that at all.
What you have gotten as a reaction GG etc is something of a knee-jerk to the percieved attitude you espoused instead of your claimed gender. I still cannot believe you've done that, you sucked me in (which I guess isn't all that hard).
Also, why drag someone elses name into it? That's just plain crass.
I apologise, and I am trully surprised to read such words from someone I'd never pick in a million years as being like that at all.
What you have gotten as a reaction GG etc is something of a knee-jerk to the percieved attitude you espoused instead of your claimed gender. I still cannot believe you've done that, you sucked me in (which I guess isn't all that hard).
Also, why drag someone elses name into it? That's just plain crass.
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Ehh i bin drinkin dat lady in a boat and my puckin head goo bang bang,crikkeys im bin real pissssed!!!Hey you mob bin fly me too pohpunya ehh !!!I bin want dat plane wid them two motors,he bin real fast.eh screw jack i bin miss you long time,i bin think you bin get dat prancis pella and we bin get real drunk and cause big fight!!I bin get my wife GEISHA GIRL too cook them bush tucker!!!
and i bin let you screw her like movie star!!YOU THINK YOURE A GIRL BUT YOURE REALY A VERY UGLY MAN!!!!we know.Go home back too your silver spoon and chuck your self on the lounge room floor and cry like a baby.GA dosnt need anymore ******s.Stop blameing everyone else and take a good look at your self.
GA is slowly dieing,just have a look around moorabin,40 year old buisnesses closeing there doors.
and i bin let you screw her like movie star!!YOU THINK YOURE A GIRL BUT YOURE REALY A VERY UGLY MAN!!!!we know.Go home back too your silver spoon and chuck your self on the lounge room floor and cry like a baby.GA dosnt need anymore ******s.Stop blameing everyone else and take a good look at your self.
GA is slowly dieing,just have a look around moorabin,40 year old buisnesses closeing there doors.
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Pay peanuts... get monkeys.
"monday morning quarter back," forgive me if I'm Australian but that doesn't even make sense and,... As someone who believes in treating professionals as professionals if you want them to perform as such, I like to understand when someone is insulting me.
"If everyone stopped looking at GA as a stepping stone or hobby then maybe conditions and wages will improve..." well said PHF.
"Focus on the end product, if it is airlines WILL pay a great dividend later on." Why should it SJ, would you still say it was all worth it if the majors played and payed by the same rules you endorse for GA? Would you still be happy if for your hard earned experience you where still working for casual pay, no security and oh yes... hotel stories. Or are you saying that people who carry 15 PAX rather than 150, are less professional than yourself.
The old saying is true enough, pay peanuts and you get monkeys. The resent findings in the Lake Evella crash are all to quickly forgotten. It's well and good to take children and give them their "break," but why should that compromise on standards, whether contractual or safety. From what I've seen (& I know you'll all be itching to slam me for this generalisation), operators that claim the high ground for employing low hour pilots, do so because they are the ones desperate enough to accept less than adequate conditions. Worse still these vulnerable juniors are also yet to learn that compromising safety for an operator is not worth risking you life for.
SJ, "NOT A MINUTE OF IT WAS UNREWARDED, IT PAID THE ULTIMATE DIVIDEND." You are one of the blessed, for not all get to see the dividend before paying the ultimate price.
Now where have I heard that slogan..."Where experience counts"... can't remember, but it couldn't be NAC. Surely "a bloke with 200 hours" can't be called experienced.
Perhaps incident and accident rates should speak for themselves.
"But geuss what if theres no flying then obviously no one gets to go flying..." If conditions there are so generous HA, what sort of pay can all your casually employed staff rely on when the flying stops.
Now, before you write me off as disgruntled, insecure and a quarterback (well I don't get it so maybe I am one). I've had my break in GA, had the chance accrued many hours, many stories, and worked very hard to provide a professional standard of service and safety. And I don't loose sight of my dependence on my employer, or their on going existence. In return I receive a full time salary, the proper respect for the work I put in, and have a satisfying and fulling career under way without flying "heavy metal."
So I refer back to what has already been well said, "If everyone stopped looking at GA as a stepping stone or hobby then maybe conditions and wages (and I would add standards and safety) will improve."
G-UP.
"If everyone stopped looking at GA as a stepping stone or hobby then maybe conditions and wages will improve..." well said PHF.
"Focus on the end product, if it is airlines WILL pay a great dividend later on." Why should it SJ, would you still say it was all worth it if the majors played and payed by the same rules you endorse for GA? Would you still be happy if for your hard earned experience you where still working for casual pay, no security and oh yes... hotel stories. Or are you saying that people who carry 15 PAX rather than 150, are less professional than yourself.
The old saying is true enough, pay peanuts and you get monkeys. The resent findings in the Lake Evella crash are all to quickly forgotten. It's well and good to take children and give them their "break," but why should that compromise on standards, whether contractual or safety. From what I've seen (& I know you'll all be itching to slam me for this generalisation), operators that claim the high ground for employing low hour pilots, do so because they are the ones desperate enough to accept less than adequate conditions. Worse still these vulnerable juniors are also yet to learn that compromising safety for an operator is not worth risking you life for.
SJ, "NOT A MINUTE OF IT WAS UNREWARDED, IT PAID THE ULTIMATE DIVIDEND." You are one of the blessed, for not all get to see the dividend before paying the ultimate price.
Now where have I heard that slogan..."Where experience counts"... can't remember, but it couldn't be NAC. Surely "a bloke with 200 hours" can't be called experienced.
Perhaps incident and accident rates should speak for themselves.
"But geuss what if theres no flying then obviously no one gets to go flying..." If conditions there are so generous HA, what sort of pay can all your casually employed staff rely on when the flying stops.
Now, before you write me off as disgruntled, insecure and a quarterback (well I don't get it so maybe I am one). I've had my break in GA, had the chance accrued many hours, many stories, and worked very hard to provide a professional standard of service and safety. And I don't loose sight of my dependence on my employer, or their on going existence. In return I receive a full time salary, the proper respect for the work I put in, and have a satisfying and fulling career under way without flying "heavy metal."
So I refer back to what has already been well said, "If everyone stopped looking at GA as a stepping stone or hobby then maybe conditions and wages (and I would add standards and safety) will improve."
G-UP.
Which comes first the chicken or the egg?
If Wages/conditions and safety standards were improved then maybe GA would not be used as a stepping stone.
I do not doubt that each and every person who posts here has a love of flying whether Daddy paid or not! It is a wicked job being in the Air! However everyone gets to a point when a change is needed, be it a new challenge or a new bit of earth to fly over, or new base with a greater abundance of the opposite sex (or same sex if thats your go).
This my friends is part of the pulling power of aviation. New endeavours are sought, new crap to conquer!
Stay up there!
Poto
If Wages/conditions and safety standards were improved then maybe GA would not be used as a stepping stone.
I do not doubt that each and every person who posts here has a love of flying whether Daddy paid or not! It is a wicked job being in the Air! However everyone gets to a point when a change is needed, be it a new challenge or a new bit of earth to fly over, or new base with a greater abundance of the opposite sex (or same sex if thats your go).
This my friends is part of the pulling power of aviation. New endeavours are sought, new crap to conquer!
Stay up there!
Poto
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You are a fool SJ.
It is your attitude that ensures GA pilots will never be paid what they should or GA be considered anything more than a stepping stone to the airlines.
Next time you need some repairs done around your house maybe you could suggest to the apprentice who shows up that he could do it for nothing because the pay off will come tomorrow, maybe you could even write him a great reference or be his mate.
Idiot.
It is your attitude that ensures GA pilots will never be paid what they should or GA be considered anything more than a stepping stone to the airlines.
Next time you need some repairs done around your house maybe you could suggest to the apprentice who shows up that he could do it for nothing because the pay off will come tomorrow, maybe you could even write him a great reference or be his mate.
Idiot.
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I think you are missing the point. GA is, has and always will be regarded as a stepping stone to bigger and better. How many people do you honestly know that start out to make a GA career? I know I didn't I had every intention of the airlines - things change.
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Next time you need some repairs done around your house maybe you could suggest to the apprentice who shows up that he could do it for nothing because the pay off will come tomorrow, maybe you could even write him a great reference or be his mate.
Eventually the apprentice will get his ticket, and then he/she can earn the money that he/she rightly deserves.
GA is the apprenticeship for Airlines. That's the way it is.
You can't convince me that a freshly trained CPL has the skill level commensurate with the level of payment that you suggest. I would in fact suggest that the CPL is only a licence to learn.
I certainly would not have been able to fly a Chieftan or Baron productively when I was fresh out of training.
The first single-engine "JOB" with low wages is actually still a learning ground, and once a confident level is achieved, the race is on for a twin-engine position, and it is back to learning again. After that, the search for satisfying and financially rewarding employment begins.
Most operators have heard all the promises from young or low-time pilots before:- I am here for the long run; I am not looking for a job in the airlines; I'd be happy to fly a Chieftan for the rest of my life; etc.
If an opportunity for advancement comes up, these same people are off in a flash, and they care little for the operator they leave behind who has to continue on.
For those odd individuals who do remain with one GA operator for any substantial period of time, their loyalty is usually rewarded with appropriate wages and conditions.
Whinging about what you think you ought to be paid will not increase your wages. A positive attitude might.
All of the guys I have met who have stayed positive through their time in GA have gone on to bigger and better things, but the moaners and complainers linger on in GA, become bitter and twisted, and then spend all their time on PPRUNE trying to drum up support from others with similar attitudes.
A wise old friend once told me "Your attitude determines your altitude."
Think about it.
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Ditto with HA and NG.
Some people get busy doing and some get busy whinging....
SJ seems to be saying that positive attitude and commerical reality are omnipotent.....
I tend to agree.
So all you Big "L's" out there keep on crying foul, enjoy GA for the rest of your life. But if you are really passionate and SJ so far removed from reality, take him up on his offer... Nah its tough to keep bagging someone in an anonymous forum.....LOSERS
Some people get busy doing and some get busy whinging....
SJ seems to be saying that positive attitude and commerical reality are omnipotent.....
I tend to agree.
So all you Big "L's" out there keep on crying foul, enjoy GA for the rest of your life. But if you are really passionate and SJ so far removed from reality, take him up on his offer... Nah its tough to keep bagging someone in an anonymous forum.....LOSERS
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"Got my gear up", just a little question...Do you really believe that providing professional service is associated with $? Before you answer yes, note that plenty of my friends were earning ****** all during the administration of the AN group of companies. Did it change their attitude....you bet it didn't those guys are professional. Any commercial pilot with an appreciation of commercial and economic relaity understands the objective of commercial aviation is to come back and do it tomorrow. In other words my friends there has to be enough motivation( profit/return) for an owner to continue taking chances....... As NG said it was attitude that determined (altitude) professionalism not the pay rate. Attitude is an individual characteristic. Either you got it in which case you achieve your own individual form of greatness. OR YOU SIT IN HERE AND BITCH......
"LF" give me a call wise a*s and we'll sort it out face to face you loser Tell me you freaking genius how many people you employ again?
Growler old mate....
It's not an analogy for vegetables. Have you ever been to Africa or most of Asia and seen the abject poverty? Where there is no escape each day just survival..Tell me when you have seen the poor in Calcutta that pooor old pilots in Australia do it tough in comparison. I'm certainly not denigrating the efforts pilots put into their career etc.
We got it easy in Australia, all people have to do is get their head out of the self pity trap and look around.
Anyways I guess i'll get carpeted again by all those who think an overseas holiday goes as far as the Gold Coast!
But life isn't fair(edited for length)
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My, my ,my SJ don't you take it to heart when someone disagree's with your all knowing opinion.
My point Next Gen. is that GA shouldn't only be considered as "the apprenticeship for the airlines", it should be a viable career for anyone choosing to make it so. This won't occur until GA pilots are paid what they should be. And this won't occur while people think it's o.k to pay f**k all because the real payoff is experience.
I'ts not me suggesting what a new CPL should be paid, there's an award in place for that and a CPL is a licence to learn but it shouldn't mean getting screwed over at the same time.
My point Next Gen. is that GA shouldn't only be considered as "the apprenticeship for the airlines", it should be a viable career for anyone choosing to make it so. This won't occur until GA pilots are paid what they should be. And this won't occur while people think it's o.k to pay f**k all because the real payoff is experience.
I'ts not me suggesting what a new CPL should be paid, there's an award in place for that and a CPL is a licence to learn but it shouldn't mean getting screwed over at the same time.
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LF
You dissappoint me when you refer to others as a fool and an idiot, purely because their opinion differs from yours.
Fool :- a person who acts or thinks unwisely or imprudently.
Stupid:-not intelligent or clever, slow at learning or understanding things.
From the discussions within this thread, I find it difficult to draw the same conclusion as you have about ScrewJac
I could not find your definition that describes Fool or Idiot as somebody with a different opinion to your own.
However, from the lack of depth in your comments, it may appear to some that you are in fact the Fool and the Idiot.
You dissappoint me when you refer to others as a fool and an idiot, purely because their opinion differs from yours.
Fool :- a person who acts or thinks unwisely or imprudently.
Stupid:-not intelligent or clever, slow at learning or understanding things.
From the discussions within this thread, I find it difficult to draw the same conclusion as you have about ScrewJac
I could not find your definition that describes Fool or Idiot as somebody with a different opinion to your own.
However, from the lack of depth in your comments, it may appear to some that you are in fact the Fool and the Idiot.
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Next Gen.
Perhaps my suggestion that SJ is a fool & an idiot was a little harsh however I do not understand how someone who has come from GA can sanction the underpaying or lack of payment to pilots simply because the experience they seek to obtain is considered payment enough.
Perhaps my suggestion that SJ is a fool & an idiot was a little harsh however I do not understand how someone who has come from GA can sanction the underpaying or lack of payment to pilots simply because the experience they seek to obtain is considered payment enough.
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I fly because I love to fly !!!!!
If I wanted to be rich, I would have become a doctor !
Nobody (as far as I know) has ever had a gun put to their head and told that they must choose this career path.
If you are unhappy in your chosen field, get out and let somebody who really wants to fly have a chance.
If I wanted to be rich, I would have become a doctor !
Nobody (as far as I know) has ever had a gun put to their head and told that they must choose this career path.
If you are unhappy in your chosen field, get out and let somebody who really wants to fly have a chance.
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I think that some people offering their opinions here are doing so from the perspective of those just starting employment or chasing the next rung in the GA ladder.
I can’t believe that people are defending paying below award wages like it is a fortune that operators can’t afford in GA!
Base salary for a single engine charter pilot according to the award:
$28776
For a multi engine pilot operating aircraft not above 3360kgs
$33244
With extras included in the award these amounts are slightly higher but you would be lucky to be paying more than 38k for a multi piston driver under the award.
I would think that the award is structured to suitably reflect a reasonable remuneration to a suitably qualified person to carry out his or her duties.
If it isn’t then what do all you experts propose is a reasonable wage to be offered to pilots?
The award covers a lot more than just money, what are some of your opinions on severance pay, leave, sick days etc? Does any of that matter to you?
Dam, we should just be thankful we weren’t born in poverty stricken Ethiopia.
How are your values on other aspects of your profession if your eyes are blinkered and fixed straight ahead searching for the next hour that you should be thankful for because you don’t have the experience really to be deserved proper pay for it.
But, you know, why your there and keen to help out can you just fly this one extra day for us, bust your duty wide open, fly in weather below your qualifications, go with unserviceabilities, it’s a tight ship GA don't you know. Be thankful for your job. (and the hours)
Going to have the spine to stand up to these scenarios?
We all have or have had our sights set on the horizon and the work we do today is helping us reach our goals, but why degenerate yourself into a spineless mould by refusing to open your eyes, standing above the aviating egotistical masturbation and dreamy John Magee bullsh*t and justifiably asserting your worth as a person, employee and aviator and at least show that you are capable of deserving respect.
If you can't do this then you can let loose with all the verbal diarrhea comparisons of starving kids in Africa you like but it’s a poor effort in trying to justify a serious lack of morals, self respect and yes- work ethics.
I can’t believe that people are defending paying below award wages like it is a fortune that operators can’t afford in GA!
Base salary for a single engine charter pilot according to the award:
$28776
For a multi engine pilot operating aircraft not above 3360kgs
$33244
With extras included in the award these amounts are slightly higher but you would be lucky to be paying more than 38k for a multi piston driver under the award.
I would think that the award is structured to suitably reflect a reasonable remuneration to a suitably qualified person to carry out his or her duties.
If it isn’t then what do all you experts propose is a reasonable wage to be offered to pilots?
The award covers a lot more than just money, what are some of your opinions on severance pay, leave, sick days etc? Does any of that matter to you?
Dam, we should just be thankful we weren’t born in poverty stricken Ethiopia.
How are your values on other aspects of your profession if your eyes are blinkered and fixed straight ahead searching for the next hour that you should be thankful for because you don’t have the experience really to be deserved proper pay for it.
But, you know, why your there and keen to help out can you just fly this one extra day for us, bust your duty wide open, fly in weather below your qualifications, go with unserviceabilities, it’s a tight ship GA don't you know. Be thankful for your job. (and the hours)
Going to have the spine to stand up to these scenarios?
We all have or have had our sights set on the horizon and the work we do today is helping us reach our goals, but why degenerate yourself into a spineless mould by refusing to open your eyes, standing above the aviating egotistical masturbation and dreamy John Magee bullsh*t and justifiably asserting your worth as a person, employee and aviator and at least show that you are capable of deserving respect.
If you can't do this then you can let loose with all the verbal diarrhea comparisons of starving kids in Africa you like but it’s a poor effort in trying to justify a serious lack of morals, self respect and yes- work ethics.
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Some might think Im a GA looser but I dont realy care.Ive been doing the same thing for over ten years and I still enjoy going too work.(most times)I dont think this is a crime.If your happy In what you are doing well good for you,If you are not well time to get out and do something different!Sure I could get a diffrent job which pays better but Im happy.I get told all the time that I should choose the hangar or flying not both,Why should I,I get the best of both worlds.Im the lucky one.
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I suppose your first question at a Regional or Major Airline interview will be"What are the pay and conditions".
You will have plenty of time to review the selection panels answer on your way back to GA.
Money isn't everything!
You will have plenty of time to review the selection panels answer on your way back to GA.
Money isn't everything!
Last edited by Next Generation; 13th Aug 2003 at 19:20.
Devil's advocate if I may....
I guess someone will nail me for having an opinion here along with SJ and NG etc, but what the puck....
I'm doing my third apprenticeship. I started way back when brand spanking new cars still ran super fuel (that's leaded to you new age know-alls), and I did my first year, like all new hire apprentices, cleaning greasy, crappy parts in the safetykleen sink. I got paid jacksquat (under a sixth of the wage a qualified tradesman was drawing at the time), and I had to stay back and wash the floors etc etc each night after everyone went home, coz that's the way it was. On weekends and the odd week away I got myself some discipline training through 4/3RNSWR D Coy. This went on for a number of years.
I got wise after a few years and decided that I could do a better job of being the boss than the boss could, so after I was qualified I went and bought into a franchise of a relatively large brand-named repairer. I did reasonably well for myself, and I had a great time doing so. I even made a bit of $$ when I decided I'd had enough of chit under my fingernails, and the odd sleepless night wondering where the $$'s were gonna come from.
Second apprenticeship happened when I said to my old man one day "want some help for a few weeks with that job" in the building industry. A few weeks became eight years.... Towards the end I was running teams of builders/ roofers/ labourers all at the one time on differring jobsites, with job values measured in the millions of dollars for each site. Pay went commensurate with returns.....
Now I have embarked on apprenticeship number three, and the only advice I'll say to any of you that go out there and get a CPL with no real understanding of just what the industry is all about, then are you really fair dinkum about becoming an (insert ultimate goal here)? If you were, then you'd have done your homework a bit better, wouldn't you?
Those of which who choose to carry-on regardless, and continue to persevere knowing that with no pain there is no reward, I'll take my hat off to you, for you trully have your own measure and goals.
Those who would rather make a huge noise about it and have gotten into this industry, knowing all the time just what the score actually was, there is nobody else to blame but you.
I didn't say that everyone should just accept it, rather be aware of what it is going to take to get you where you want to go.
Those who cannot accept this, perhaps you'd be better-off doing something else if you don't have the patience to persevere. Besides, there ARE GA jobs that do pay rather well, you've just got to work out what and where.
Somebody surely should be able to get another knife in, shouldn't they?
I'm doing my third apprenticeship. I started way back when brand spanking new cars still ran super fuel (that's leaded to you new age know-alls), and I did my first year, like all new hire apprentices, cleaning greasy, crappy parts in the safetykleen sink. I got paid jacksquat (under a sixth of the wage a qualified tradesman was drawing at the time), and I had to stay back and wash the floors etc etc each night after everyone went home, coz that's the way it was. On weekends and the odd week away I got myself some discipline training through 4/3RNSWR D Coy. This went on for a number of years.
I got wise after a few years and decided that I could do a better job of being the boss than the boss could, so after I was qualified I went and bought into a franchise of a relatively large brand-named repairer. I did reasonably well for myself, and I had a great time doing so. I even made a bit of $$ when I decided I'd had enough of chit under my fingernails, and the odd sleepless night wondering where the $$'s were gonna come from.
Second apprenticeship happened when I said to my old man one day "want some help for a few weeks with that job" in the building industry. A few weeks became eight years.... Towards the end I was running teams of builders/ roofers/ labourers all at the one time on differring jobsites, with job values measured in the millions of dollars for each site. Pay went commensurate with returns.....
Now I have embarked on apprenticeship number three, and the only advice I'll say to any of you that go out there and get a CPL with no real understanding of just what the industry is all about, then are you really fair dinkum about becoming an (insert ultimate goal here)? If you were, then you'd have done your homework a bit better, wouldn't you?
Those of which who choose to carry-on regardless, and continue to persevere knowing that with no pain there is no reward, I'll take my hat off to you, for you trully have your own measure and goals.
Those who would rather make a huge noise about it and have gotten into this industry, knowing all the time just what the score actually was, there is nobody else to blame but you.
I didn't say that everyone should just accept it, rather be aware of what it is going to take to get you where you want to go.
Those who cannot accept this, perhaps you'd be better-off doing something else if you don't have the patience to persevere. Besides, there ARE GA jobs that do pay rather well, you've just got to work out what and where.
Somebody surely should be able to get another knife in, shouldn't they?
P_H_F
I agree, within a couple of $ks yes. However, paying below the award isn't "reasonable remuneration"! That is my point, your point and is in line with what others are saying on this forum. Others please take note!
I'm sorry, but like Screw Jac, you are completely missing the point. I could earn $1000 per annum in Ethiopia and be one of the wealthiest people in the country. But last time I checked, I wasn't born there, I don't work there, I work in Australia and my salary should directly reflect the cost and standards of living of this country, not Ethiopia!
G'day Ops!!! Hope all is well mate. Just one question though - I thoroughly agree with your apprenticeship analogy, but is the responsibility of a young mechanic or carpenter quite the same as a SE VFR pilot, with perhaps 7 paying pax sitting behind him? You have done all three, so you are in a much better position to comment...
Cheers,
TL off to
I would think that the award is structured to suitably reflect a reasonable remuneration to a suitably qualified person to carry out his or her duties.
Dam, we should just be thankful we weren’t born in poverty stricken Ethiopia
G'day Ops!!! Hope all is well mate. Just one question though - I thoroughly agree with your apprenticeship analogy, but is the responsibility of a young mechanic or carpenter quite the same as a SE VFR pilot, with perhaps 7 paying pax sitting behind him? You have done all three, so you are in a much better position to comment...
Cheers,
TL off to
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NG
Why is it so hard for you to accept that we should be paid better than we are & why does that have anything to do with doing the job for the money.
I love flying & have not regreted a single day of the last 10 years but that does not mean I don't hope that things can improve.
I don't want or expect to be paid millions of dollars but being paid what is right is the very least we should expect.
Why is it so hard for you to accept that we should be paid better than we are & why does that have anything to do with doing the job for the money.
I love flying & have not regreted a single day of the last 10 years but that does not mean I don't hope that things can improve.
I don't want or expect to be paid millions of dollars but being paid what is right is the very least we should expect.