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John and Martha King

Old 5th Aug 2003, 11:04
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John and Martha King

Open Mike, could you please tell us what the cost of bringing these people here is and what relevence their apprearance will be to Australia?

From reading the blurb put out by you at great expence, it looks like it is a justification for the "Willoughby Report".

Historically we get far more people training here from Asia and Europe than the US, will these areas also be changing over to the US NAS or will they have to learn their airspace system once they return home?

Please explain????????
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Old 5th Aug 2003, 11:33
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Niles,

I bet you are an Air Traffic Controller? (No make that a "Professional Pilot") Money seems to be the only thing on your mind. Aviation in Australia needs stimulating and if John and Martha can help, go for it. I note their envious record amongst the Aviation industry in the US and hope to hell they can help us stimulate ours. Lord knows it needs it. Especially the GA end of the market.

TBT
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Old 5th Aug 2003, 19:50
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The letter that comes with the registration form states :

They have taught over half of US pilots how to fly,....
Is this possible???

CG
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Old 5th Aug 2003, 19:58
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Chief............

635,000 Active Pilots in the US @~ 40 Hours for PPL

Therfore John & Martha will have approx 25 million hours each in their logbooks.

Obviously they are older than they look then. Maybe some cosmetic surgery did the trick
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Old 5th Aug 2003, 20:59
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Lies, damn lies etc.

Have a look at their web sit www.kingschools.com

All they do is produce educational, study, CD-ROM and video stuff.

Oh, and they spend alot of time self promoting aka Dick.

And the web site said almost 1 third of employed pilots have used their educational stuff. No hands on instructing here.

So they seem to be here to promote the US system so they can make some more green backs. And.... tell us all about how to make money from all the extra instruction we will be doing because of the new system. Give me a break!

These will be really interesting breakfasts. Here is my spin on things.

The first one will be great, we will even be able to ask questions.

The second one will have a very small time for questions.

The third will have no questions at all.

The forth will be a free for all and they will return to the US siting a family emergency, sickness etc and "Thats all folks, y'all come back now ye here"
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Old 5th Aug 2003, 21:08
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John & Martha King

A few years ago the Kings visited Aus and flew their Caravan around the place. They wrote an article for one of the Aus aviation magazines (Flying? not sure...)

One thing struck me about what they had to say about that visit. It appeared that they couldn't figure out made the Australian GA industry different from that of the USA. I think they expected thriving hives of activity at every little backwater country aerodrome - line boys, rental cars, cafes, 24 hr UNICOMs, etc.

The USA might geographically be big spread out and made for aviation, just like Oz, but that's where the similarities end. Can you imagine flying your PA-28 to Parkes or Dubbo or Bathurst and having people compete for your refuelling business? Imagine places like Port Macquarie or Wagga having class C radar, ILS, HIAL and a multitude of schools, a couple of FBOs and hundreds of movements a day. Most parts of the USA seem to be like that, but most places here are cobweb covered, run down and empty.

AUS & USA AREN'T THE SAME MR & MRS KING!

I'm not sure if I'll pay much attention to their seminars, but I will be interested to find out if they understand these differences.

Good night, rant over.
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Old 5th Aug 2003, 21:28
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"There are no better experts..."

So why, then, are they not on the NASIG displacing all the experts that are currently on it, the ones that have to duck off to the USA every 5 minutes (at IFR industry expense) to work out how to implement the dream of the boy from Terry Hills?
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Old 6th Aug 2003, 09:00
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Talking Open Mike is busy

Niles.
Open Mike is unable to respond to your questions because he is busy writing his application for the CEO of CASA's job. I wonder who his referees will be?
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Old 6th Aug 2003, 09:17
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From the King's web site:

"Do you think that a 30 nautical mile Presidential TFR is necessary to protect the President?"

Unfortunately the only choise is "yes" or "no".

Wish they had a box that says "No, except for missile equipped RAAF F/A 18's."
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Old 6th Aug 2003, 09:48
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Gotta admit that this whole thing looks like a big gimmick to try and get the pilots onside with these changes.

If I really want information on this, I'd rather read about them in the relevant documentation, not listen to some damn Yanks spouting on how well it works in the good ole US of A.

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Old 6th Aug 2003, 13:30
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Angry

Hyped up seppos to sell us a dangerous downgrading of services? What the?

I would like to see a former head of CASA be made to ask them about higher rates of mid airs in the states, and their feelings on the new class G airspace. Oops sorry, I mean NAS!
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Old 7th Aug 2003, 13:37
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They look like absolute friggin idiots in those pictures with their thumbs up and pants up around their armpits.

Probably the kind of people who have number plates "PILOT 1" and PILOT 2".
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Old 8th Aug 2003, 08:51
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New system?

The powers at be would be better off buying back some airports, abolishing their pay increase GST thereby making it affordable for private pilots to fly and for buisness to be able to afford some of the increase in productivity General Aviation could offer.

Lets get a %#$@ing industry happening before we spend your and my money(TAX that is) on buttering up people we do not need. For Christs sake their is a multitude of people in this country who have a very skilled and knowledgable background on the airspace subject.

Give AUSTRALIA a go, let us show the world that we are capable of innovative, workable solutions to air traffic flow.

And while I am having a winge, why would the Dept. ban banner towing around the City of Brisbane. JOHN HOWARD spent millions of dollars posting every AUSTRALIAN a BE NOT AFRAID BUT BE AWARE letter. Then CASA said we are giving in to the terroists, thou shalt not tow banners near the city.

Last I heard, banner towing was a commercial operation, required a commercial pilot and the lodgement of a flight plan. Not to mention the one or two people that can actually do it.

This industry is in serious need of a marketting campaign, the promotion of Aviation and the regulation of the Aviation laws needs to be taken from CASA and Airservices. They are not capable and do not seemingly give a damn about peoples livlihoods.

This is totally UN AUSTRALIAN. We are in Australia are we not.



Winge Finished.
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Old 8th Aug 2003, 09:14
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Arrow

John & Martha

Is this a case of "Oz Inadequacy Syndrome" = "If it's local it's no good. America #1"?

If John & Martha "taught over half of US pilots how to fly" they need their asses kicked for teaching the Yanks to be the world's WORST, NON-STANDARD radio operators!!
"Checkin' in at three five ohhh"
"Outta seven point two for one nine ohhh
"
And the breakneck speed at which the controllers rattle out instructions to non native-English speaking pilots is nothing short of mindless stupidity....imo!
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Old 8th Aug 2003, 12:43
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Have to agree GT-R. Shocking photo. Place a copy of the "Watchtower" in the other hand and they could be mistaken for Jehovas Witnesses. No offence to J.W.'s out there.
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Old 8th Aug 2003, 14:16
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What the hell has Open Mike got to do with this??
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Old 8th Aug 2003, 15:07
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Open Mike, looking through the members, I may have mistaken you for "Open Mic", my apologies if you are not the head of NAS, but if you are, or if you are not, this is intended for that asteemed person:

According to the flyers being posted out, your name and the name of the organisation that you head is the one who is inviting everyone to attend these breakfasts and evenings..

I am asking at what cost these events are costing and where the money is coming from?

It would seem to me that the only beneficiaries are the VFR types who do not pay for any services and it will be left to the IFR types to suffer a loss of services and have to pay for the privilege.

I can see no financial benifit to IFR out of the only report that has been produced so far, the "Willoughby Report".

As we live in an open and democratic society, I would like to know the cost??

Last edited by Niles Crane; 8th Aug 2003 at 15:18.
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Old 8th Aug 2003, 15:16
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Oh yeah the Kings,

I remember them from the USA back when I was there trying to jumpstart a flying career.

They put out a series of video tapes for the US ATPL exam. What a bloody farce! The exam books are freely available in the US with the ACTUAL questions in them!

These tapes were just John and Martha going over the questions. Very little theory involved from memory and designed to pass the exam over a weekend or so.

Now I am not trying to denegrade the kings but CASA really has lost the plot!
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Old 8th Aug 2003, 18:39
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The Kings certainly are widely used in the US. Their success has come from finding ways to help people pass written tests with a minimum of effort.
They teach little rules of thumb to answer FAA test questions. Some of their videos have useful animations to help explain theoretical ideas but overall I have never been very impressed with them. That being said, what is it they are being asked to do in Australia?

Are they being asked to explain the US airspace system? If so then they are certainly good people for the job. Are they being asked to help explain what benefits the NAS has for Australian pilots? If so.... then who's idea was that? They don't know a damn thing about Australia I'm sure.

I do know this. A lot of people make comments on this forum RE: CASA's role in aviation. It seems they think that if noone flies there will be no crashes!

Having flown in both the US and Australia I can tell you there are significant differences between the FAA and CASA. One of the most important ones is this.

In the US the system is much more user friendly. The idea is that everybody should be able to participate & it is the FAA's role to help make everybody as safe as can be. If people violate regulations there are certainly consequences but more of the burden is put on the pilot & the operator with FAA oversight.

If a problem exists then the government help change the circumstances by providing financial aid/legislative support rather than just putting an end to the operation. If an operator continues to be seen as unsafe than market forces either dictate change or put the operator out of business. The government should not be in the position of putting someone out of business except as a last resort.

The government here realised a long time ago how vital aviation is to the economy & in a country spread out like Australia this would only be more true. The Federal Government needs to promote aviation by making it easier for people to get involved.

The Australian system needs an overhaul. It would be great to see some people on this forum coming up with ideas on how to change the system for the better rather than trashing every idea somebody else comes up with.

Also the services provided are available to all pilots VFR & IFR on a workload permitted basis. If you want to hear a good example of ATC and Flight Service helping out a VFR pilot in distress go to www.naats.org and click on the red MAYDAY MAY DAY MAYDAY link on the right.
This is one of my company's former students who had an inadvertent encounter with IMC conditions and entered a spin. Through the quick actions of ATC he was rescued.

So I know we started out talking about the Kings, & whether you like them or not they are a great example of the American Aviation spirit which is..... everybody should be able to participate. That is why their educational material is directed to the lowest common denominator.
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Old 8th Aug 2003, 19:15
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Weasil: Thanks for the link.
Having personally been involved in an identical situation, it makes me all the sadder to watch Dick et al move thru the oz system with a wrecking ball. It's hard not to get angry. The guy in the sound file is exactly the statistic that will be deemed 'acceptable'.

Ask the King's how someone like the guy in the sound file will get help under the ausNAS. Remember, Australia is not getting the US system, just parts of it. There is no 'flight service', flight following or other parts of the infrastructure that the US has. He won't even know what frequency to be on, it won't be on the chart! But keep going Dick, Mike etc. You might just get what you wish for. I hope that somehow, somewhere, someone will make you accoutable.
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