Minimum Wage
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Minimum Wage
I read in the paper the other day that people on the minimum wage are going to get a $17 a week pay rise. Not much I thought to myself but every little bit must help. I then read that minimum wage is $731 A WEEK!!!
WHAT THE F@#$
You mean to tell me that after spending $60,000 on training, putting flying first over all other comitments including family and freinds (how many girlfreinds I've lost
) and working sometimes 70 hr weeks, for some mexican in a factory to be earning $10,000 a year more than me !!!
This industry is a disgrace and its about time people knew, sometimes I feel like going to A Current Affair and bursting the bubble!!. There are times where I cant sleep at night from the guilt of taking some poor guys hard earned while his wife and three kids go without. "But don't worry it will be worth it in the end" they tell me, while I'm thinking to myself that even if this guy is lucky enough to snag a job he will only be bringing $25 - 30 k a year home best case scenario after three years of s@#$ kicking on $10,000. God this stuff kills me, I think its time I got out of this industry whilst I still have some shred of dignity and morality left. Are there anyother instructors out there that feel the same way or am I just being tired and emotional??
WHAT THE F@#$
You mean to tell me that after spending $60,000 on training, putting flying first over all other comitments including family and freinds (how many girlfreinds I've lost
) and working sometimes 70 hr weeks, for some mexican in a factory to be earning $10,000 a year more than me !!!This industry is a disgrace and its about time people knew, sometimes I feel like going to A Current Affair and bursting the bubble!!. There are times where I cant sleep at night from the guilt of taking some poor guys hard earned while his wife and three kids go without. "But don't worry it will be worth it in the end" they tell me, while I'm thinking to myself that even if this guy is lucky enough to snag a job he will only be bringing $25 - 30 k a year home best case scenario after three years of s@#$ kicking on $10,000. God this stuff kills me, I think its time I got out of this industry whilst I still have some shred of dignity and morality left. Are there anyother instructors out there that feel the same way or am I just being tired and emotional??
Last edited by getmeoutofga; 8th May 2003 at 07:31.
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$731 per week sounds more like Average Weekly Earnings rather than minimum wage. There's a big difference between the two.
Sorry to read about your plight, but it seems the flying training industry (with few exceptions) has remained unchanged industrially for at least the last 20 years
You control your destiny mate. If you choose to accept sub-standard conditions, then they'll never change.
It's a tough call. We all know that there are pinheads around that'll happily cut the grass from under you (happened to me). Stand your ground...One door closes, another opens. The job I got as a result not only paid award but was one of the most enjoyable and personally rewarding jobs I've had, both inside and outside of flying.
Family and friends first. Sometimes difficult to realise until it's too late....
Sorry to read about your plight, but it seems the flying training industry (with few exceptions) has remained unchanged industrially for at least the last 20 years
You control your destiny mate. If you choose to accept sub-standard conditions, then they'll never change.
It's a tough call. We all know that there are pinheads around that'll happily cut the grass from under you (happened to me). Stand your ground...One door closes, another opens. The job I got as a result not only paid award but was one of the most enjoyable and personally rewarding jobs I've had, both inside and outside of flying.
Family and friends first. Sometimes difficult to realise until it's too late....
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$731? HUH?
You're right Hugh. $731 a week for minimum wage? I doubt that would even be without tax taken out.
If it is the minimum wage (and supposing the minimum wage is assigned to 18-27 year old people whose highest level of education is grade 10) then the gap between middle income and minimum wage is jost *wrong*.
I'll be extremely pi5sed if it is the minimum wage too.
SixStarAnsett
If it is the minimum wage (and supposing the minimum wage is assigned to 18-27 year old people whose highest level of education is grade 10) then the gap between middle income and minimum wage is jost *wrong*.
I'll be extremely pi5sed if it is the minimum wage too.
SixStarAnsett
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O.K well this is the quote straight from the paper "Employees on the minimum award wage earning less than the full time equivilant of $731.80 a week will get a $17 a week raise" and "Australias 1.7 million award workers were today granted a pay rise of.."
im confused whats the difference between wage and weekly earnings anyway??
im confused whats the difference between wage and weekly earnings anyway??
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getme
It sounds to me that the journo got his words wrong. That makes the minimum wage $38k.
I remember there was a hooha a couple of years ago about bringing in a guaranteed "minimum wage" for workers, but I'm unsure if it ever came to fruition. There was a lot of opposition from the Employers Federation.
Mrs. Jarse is paid the award in her chosen field, but she does not earn $38k.
Believe 1/2 of what you see, and none of what you hear
I remember there was a hooha a couple of years ago about bringing in a guaranteed "minimum wage" for workers, but I'm unsure if it ever came to fruition. There was a lot of opposition from the Employers Federation.
Mrs. Jarse is paid the award in her chosen field, but she does not earn $38k.
Believe 1/2 of what you see, and none of what you hear
Think you might have misread somewhere, or the journo is wrong. The min wage is around 450 bucks (a bit less I think) according to an artical I read recently. The average might be $731, and I'm sure that average is brought down by us poor b@stards in GA
Hugh, I'm happy to hear about your experience getting employed on the award, but it ain't the real world. We all know there are waaay too many pilots compared to the number of jobs, let alone jobs that pay properly. If you take the attitude that you won't accept what the employer is offering unless it's the award (I'm not saying that's wrong) I think you'll miss out cos of all the pinheads. I have been told either directly or indirectly in every flying job I've had (bar one, so that makes 4) that pilots are a dime a dozen and if I don't like it I can leave whenever I want. It's all about supply and demand unfortunately.
Hugh, I'm happy to hear about your experience getting employed on the award, but it ain't the real world. We all know there are waaay too many pilots compared to the number of jobs, let alone jobs that pay properly. If you take the attitude that you won't accept what the employer is offering unless it's the award (I'm not saying that's wrong) I think you'll miss out cos of all the pinheads. I have been told either directly or indirectly in every flying job I've had (bar one, so that makes 4) that pilots are a dime a dozen and if I don't like it I can leave whenever I want. It's all about supply and demand unfortunately.
I was listening to someone on the radio yesterday bemoaning the fact that uni degrees such as medicine and so on are attracting big HECS fees and how sad it all is; got me thinking about the sacrifices that people make to get a CPL and work their way up the ladder - much larger payout and lesser rewards, generally. I can't think of another profession where you have to shell out so much just to get a foot in the door.
I got my training with the military, and while it was no picnic, they were paying me, so I haven't experienced what most of you guys have. My hat's off to the people who put in the hard yards to work their way through the system and keep their motivation up.
That's probably the key to why GA wages are low - pilots want to fly full stop, so the lure of high wages doesn't have to be there to make them put in a lot of work to do so.
I got my training with the military, and while it was no picnic, they were paying me, so I haven't experienced what most of you guys have. My hat's off to the people who put in the hard yards to work their way through the system and keep their motivation up.
That's probably the key to why GA wages are low - pilots want to fly full stop, so the lure of high wages doesn't have to be there to make them put in a lot of work to do so.
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getmeoutofga I'm in the same situation, been in GA for too long and every day I'm bending over to take a pineapple up the a##e
and smiling.
Don't get me wrong I luv flying and hav had some experiences but every nite it tears me up the situation I'm in.
I've gone too far with no other qualifications and not a cent in the bank things must improve 4 me soon.
Hang in there don't let them win.
Good luck.
and smiling.
Don't get me wrong I luv flying and hav had some experiences but every nite it tears me up the situation I'm in.
I've gone too far with no other qualifications and not a cent in the bank things must improve 4 me soon.
Hang in there don't let them win.
Good luck.
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I think you should make a stand, next renewal/endorsement/training you do - offer to pay double the hourly rate to cover the services of the instructor. The sad thing for me is that some people who are now experiencing poor wages in the lower end of the industry were hunting around looking for the lowest training price only a year or so ago.
Moderator
Good point
But how do we make the punters see that you get what you pay for? All they look at is "how much does it cost for a one hour flying lesson" in the early stages, and get fed a load of spin.
I have recently started to work for a company that employes helicopter pilots aswell as fixed wing. My information may be incorrect but I was told that the helicopter guys are paid heaps more than the fixed wing as per the award. Why are fixed wing pilots and instructors being screwed??
For the life of me I cannot understand why after the years of study and the tens of thousands of dollars spent on my aviation career the check out chick at Coles is earning a similar wage to me and I am being paid the award!
How can we get this message accross to the people that set the award for GA pilots that this is unfair?
For the life of me I cannot understand why after the years of study and the tens of thousands of dollars spent on my aviation career the check out chick at Coles is earning a similar wage to me and I am being paid the award!
How can we get this message accross to the people that set the award for GA pilots that this is unfair?
bitter balance,
I can't see what that will prove - the instructor will still get the same lousy rate, and the flying school will pocket the rest.
Is the problem really that the schools/ charter companies can't afford to pay their pilots properly, or that they simply don't want to or need to.
Besides that, when I come up for renewal each year (the boss kindly letting me use my own time and money for it) I can hardly afford to pay more than the bare minimum. Its not as if I'm earning any more than the guy doing my renewal.
supercharged,
fixed wing guys/gals get shafted cos there is too many of us. It's too easy for a boss to find someone equally qualified who will not only take one pineapple, but two - and enjoy it!
The only answer I can think of is for the government to look at the award and bring it in line with other $50-60K degree jobs (or at least something more realistic), and then enforce it.
How can we make this happen? Would it be possible/ worthwhile starting a petition through pprune?
cheers
grrowler
I can't see what that will prove - the instructor will still get the same lousy rate, and the flying school will pocket the rest.
Is the problem really that the schools/ charter companies can't afford to pay their pilots properly, or that they simply don't want to or need to.
Besides that, when I come up for renewal each year (the boss kindly letting me use my own time and money for it) I can hardly afford to pay more than the bare minimum. Its not as if I'm earning any more than the guy doing my renewal.
supercharged,
fixed wing guys/gals get shafted cos there is too many of us. It's too easy for a boss to find someone equally qualified who will not only take one pineapple, but two - and enjoy it!
The only answer I can think of is for the government to look at the award and bring it in line with other $50-60K degree jobs (or at least something more realistic), and then enforce it.
How can we make this happen? Would it be possible/ worthwhile starting a petition through pprune?
cheers
grrowler
Last edited by grrowler; 9th May 2003 at 14:49.
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The min. wage in PNG is 60 kina ($24 AUD) per week !!!!
Sure you don't all live in PNG, but if you think things are bad for a GA pilot in Australia, try living in other parts of the world.
Sure you don't all live in PNG, but if you think things are bad for a GA pilot in Australia, try living in other parts of the world.
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grrowler, I was making a point. The real cost of GA training is about double what the market expects (and wants) to pay. There cannot be a major increase in GA salaries without a major shift in the market. You are part of the market, are you prepared to pay double what you pay now for services?
There is no pot of gold at the end of the GA rainbow. GA operators are not quaffing brandy and lighting their cigars with rolled up (albeit plastic) 20 dollar notes.
There is no pot of gold at the end of the GA rainbow. GA operators are not quaffing brandy and lighting their cigars with rolled up (albeit plastic) 20 dollar notes.
bb,
You're trying to tell me a CPL should be worth nearly $80K (I guess BAE would be worth $200K 
)! I have absolutely no idea about the cost of tests, admin, theory, etc, but say you took out 10 grand. On a 150hr course that gives you a fairly tidy $466 per tacho hour for a flogged out 150 and 172/182 maybe! I cannot think of any operator who would pass any of this extra profit on to the pilot. As an example, a colleague and I managed to make an extra $500 above normal profit on a charter. A bonus - no. A 6 pack - no. A "good effort boys" - not even. I guess the cruiser will get paid off quicker!
The fact is operators can afford to pay the award, and could afford to pay better than the award by raising their costs slightly.
Benefits: Motivated crew/ work force has a positive impact on business, crew stay with company for more than 6-12 months (reduced training costs and higher crew experience).
I had an operator tell me once he wouldn't get out of bed for less than $100 profit an hour. Multiply that by 4 or 5 aircraft doing 5-600 hours a year. Geez he must be struggling, my heart bleeds.
How much impact could it have on the operator to throw an extra 10 or 15 bucks an hour to the pilot, even if it meant raising their rates? I know it would make a big difference to my livelihood and my motivation.
The real cost of GA training is about double what the market expects (and wants) to pay
)! I have absolutely no idea about the cost of tests, admin, theory, etc, but say you took out 10 grand. On a 150hr course that gives you a fairly tidy $466 per tacho hour for a flogged out 150 and 172/182 maybe! I cannot think of any operator who would pass any of this extra profit on to the pilot. As an example, a colleague and I managed to make an extra $500 above normal profit on a charter. A bonus - no. A 6 pack - no. A "good effort boys" - not even. I guess the cruiser will get paid off quicker! The fact is operators can afford to pay the award, and could afford to pay better than the award by raising their costs slightly.
Benefits: Motivated crew/ work force has a positive impact on business, crew stay with company for more than 6-12 months (reduced training costs and higher crew experience).
I had an operator tell me once he wouldn't get out of bed for less than $100 profit an hour. Multiply that by 4 or 5 aircraft doing 5-600 hours a year. Geez he must be struggling, my heart bleeds.
How much impact could it have on the operator to throw an extra 10 or 15 bucks an hour to the pilot, even if it meant raising their rates? I know it would make a big difference to my livelihood and my motivation.
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grrowler, you are consistently missing my point. Market pressures are holding prices at unrealistic (and unsustainable) levels. You want payrises for pilots to above award rates. Yet you are also part of the market and you don't want to pay more.
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Bigger Threat to G.A. Pilots
Any G.A. Pilot who is concerned about pay and conditions should add their comments to the two PPL Instructor threads on D & G General Aviation.
Imagine this for a future senario:
Citizen PPL Instructor works M-F 9-5 in a job outside Aviation and brings home a comfortable salary that supports home & 2.5 kids.
On weekends, P/H & RDO's - works for free at the local Aero Club as a PPL Instructor ("Hey what a life. Build networks during the week and fly for free on weekends"!).
CPL Instructor works at another Flying School. Business drops due to popularity of free lessons. Rare Full-Time Instructing Job changes to Casual Position.
Further drop in business means that the job disappears or re-appears as an unpaid position due to Aero Club competition.
Concerned? - I am.
This idea is just nutty enough to get some Lobby.
Imagine this for a future senario:
Citizen PPL Instructor works M-F 9-5 in a job outside Aviation and brings home a comfortable salary that supports home & 2.5 kids.
On weekends, P/H & RDO's - works for free at the local Aero Club as a PPL Instructor ("Hey what a life. Build networks during the week and fly for free on weekends"!).
CPL Instructor works at another Flying School. Business drops due to popularity of free lessons. Rare Full-Time Instructing Job changes to Casual Position.
Further drop in business means that the job disappears or re-appears as an unpaid position due to Aero Club competition.
Concerned? - I am.
This idea is just nutty enough to get some Lobby.
bb,
I am not missing your point - I would be happy to pay more if it would benefit the pilot/ instructor.
However, my counter-point, which perhaps you are missing, was and is that operators look at pilots/ instructors as extremely expendable, and it wouldn't matter how much I handed over to the company, the pilot/ instructor would still get the same lousy pay packet. Please don't try to tell me it wouldn't be so.
Your reasoning that market pressures have kept the rates too low is ridiculous. All other industries are competitive, some moreso, bosses have to pay their workforce the award, and yet they still manage to make money
shock horror! The difference with aviation is a great surplus of pilots who love what they do, which Mr/s Operator realise and take advantage of.
If you carefully reread my previous post, I didn't say companies should pay above award wages, I said the companies (at current rates) could afford to pay award, and above award by raising their rates modestly. As an example, two similar rival companies have very similar rates (due to the competition), one pays the award, the other well below. Why? One operator is greedier than the other, and realises how easy it is to get replacement pilots?
The point I was trying to make was that there is enough money in GA to give your workforce a fair share, and your company will benefit in the ways I listed.
So, if we had an enforceable award, then all companies would be on an equal footing from the wages aspect, they would have an excuse to raise their rates to cover the increase in cost, and Joe Bloggs and myself would have to pay an extra whatever bucks an hour.
You get your rate increase, I get my pay rise and we're all happy sweet!
I am not missing your point - I would be happy to pay more if it would benefit the pilot/ instructor.
However, my counter-point, which perhaps you are missing, was and is that operators look at pilots/ instructors as extremely expendable, and it wouldn't matter how much I handed over to the company, the pilot/ instructor would still get the same lousy pay packet. Please don't try to tell me it wouldn't be so.
Your reasoning that market pressures have kept the rates too low is ridiculous. All other industries are competitive, some moreso, bosses have to pay their workforce the award, and yet they still manage to make money
shock horror! The difference with aviation is a great surplus of pilots who love what they do, which Mr/s Operator realise and take advantage of.If you carefully reread my previous post, I didn't say companies should pay above award wages, I said the companies (at current rates) could afford to pay award, and above award by raising their rates modestly. As an example, two similar rival companies have very similar rates (due to the competition), one pays the award, the other well below. Why? One operator is greedier than the other, and realises how easy it is to get replacement pilots?
The point I was trying to make was that there is enough money in GA to give your workforce a fair share, and your company will benefit in the ways I listed.
So, if we had an enforceable award, then all companies would be on an equal footing from the wages aspect, they would have an excuse to raise their rates to cover the increase in cost, and Joe Bloggs and myself would have to pay an extra whatever bucks an hour.
You get your rate increase, I get my pay rise and we're all happy
sweet!
Moderator
Ah grrowler, if only it were that simple, and aviation was liike other industries. How many other industries have to compete with businesses who are deliberately running at or below cost just to get the business? Not just occasionally but all the time?You are often competing with people with little or no management experience who will trade profit for cash flow and then wonder why they can't pay their bills and nobody will give them any credit.
You say:
"The difference with aviation is a great surplus of pilots who love what they do, which Mr/s Operator realise and take advantage of."
Please may I rephrase that a little:
"The difference with aviation is a great surplus of pilots who will bend over and allow Mr/s Operator to take advantage of them. "
or
"The difference in aviation is a great surplus of operators who will bend over and let the customer take advantage of them"
By doing so they all contribute to the problem. Did anyone hold a gun to your head and force you to accept the remuneration package you are on? You could have said "no", and still can. So how come you are grumbling now? If operator A pays the award, and operator B doesn't, then who should you work for? By accepting less you will be valued less.
If you want to petition someone, try the parts suppliers, the compo people, the chaps in Singapore who set the fuel rates, the currency markets....try getting the government to subsidise the industry.
Any idea what 500 bucks will buy? Maybe ten hours of a LAMEs time, or half an alternator, or 2.5% of a propeller, or reupholster a couple of seats, or a magneto, or about 2.5 tyres, and that's just for a little Cherokee....Not much in the grand scheme of things, is it.
Joe Bloggs et al will generally only be inerested in the cheapest hourly rate, which is usually accompanied by the most bullsh1t about the service they will get for it.
You say:
"The difference with aviation is a great surplus of pilots who love what they do, which Mr/s Operator realise and take advantage of."
Please may I rephrase that a little:
"The difference with aviation is a great surplus of pilots who will bend over and allow Mr/s Operator to take advantage of them. "
or
"The difference in aviation is a great surplus of operators who will bend over and let the customer take advantage of them"
By doing so they all contribute to the problem. Did anyone hold a gun to your head and force you to accept the remuneration package you are on? You could have said "no", and still can. So how come you are grumbling now? If operator A pays the award, and operator B doesn't, then who should you work for? By accepting less you will be valued less.
If you want to petition someone, try the parts suppliers, the compo people, the chaps in Singapore who set the fuel rates, the currency markets....try getting the government to subsidise the industry.
Any idea what 500 bucks will buy? Maybe ten hours of a LAMEs time, or half an alternator, or 2.5% of a propeller, or reupholster a couple of seats, or a magneto, or about 2.5 tyres, and that's just for a little Cherokee....Not much in the grand scheme of things, is it.
Joe Bloggs et al will generally only be inerested in the cheapest hourly rate, which is usually accompanied by the most bullsh1t about the service they will get for it.