Pilots turned operators
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Pilots turned operators
Have seen a few pilots think that they can do better than the "NFI" currently running the show and start their own company. These guys inevitably seem to be the ones who F**K pilots even more!
Have worked for a company where the owner/CEO used to be a PPL/CPL/ATPL holder, and now considers pilots to be scum of the earth, and will go out of his way to screw them at every opportunity.
Seems that this new breed of operator thinks that they KNOW the insides of the award and what pilots will put up with, and takes advantage at every opportunity. From doing "deals" with individual pilots regarding wages, to dicking around with Meal allowances, and trying to make pilots share rooms on overnights!
A notable example of these unscrupulous operators is IMPULSE!!!! Where Gerry paid pilots via a "dividend", and made them accept a voucher for dinner to the value of $10 !!! and only valid at certain places.... usually shut when the pilots got to town!
ENOUGH IS ENOUGH I say...... join a union and make the bastards pay!!!!!!
Have worked for a company where the owner/CEO used to be a PPL/CPL/ATPL holder, and now considers pilots to be scum of the earth, and will go out of his way to screw them at every opportunity.
Seems that this new breed of operator thinks that they KNOW the insides of the award and what pilots will put up with, and takes advantage at every opportunity. From doing "deals" with individual pilots regarding wages, to dicking around with Meal allowances, and trying to make pilots share rooms on overnights!
A notable example of these unscrupulous operators is IMPULSE!!!! Where Gerry paid pilots via a "dividend", and made them accept a voucher for dinner to the value of $10 !!! and only valid at certain places.... usually shut when the pilots got to town!
ENOUGH IS ENOUGH I say...... join a union and make the bastards pay!!!!!!
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PORN STAR
That is certainly a long bow to draw!
There are many good operator's around who either are or were pilots and to suggest otherwise is scandalous and absolutely unnecessary!
Would think you'll get a bashing on this one; and deservedly so!?
There are many good operator's around who either are or were pilots and to suggest otherwise is scandalous and absolutely unnecessary!
Would think you'll get a bashing on this one; and deservedly so!?
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There wouldn't be many GA operators out there who don't take full advantage of pilots and shaft them at will .Why do they do it? Because they can! Pilots who become operators lead the way,just look at darwin! Time for some of u to wake up and face reality! 
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Porn - not all operators are scum of the earth. Some are doing their best to give their pilots a good quality of life. Aviation however, is expensive and they must also look after the company or everyone loses their job and then noone is happy.
The ones that are scum of the earth eventually meet their match down the road or in the pub car park 10 years later. Bide your time sir. Every dog has his day and things always even themselves out in a way. Its all about keeping a cool head.
Be cool
The ones that are scum of the earth eventually meet their match down the road or in the pub car park 10 years later. Bide your time sir. Every dog has his day and things always even themselves out in a way. Its all about keeping a cool head.
Be cool
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P.S.;
C'mon, what will a union do for the average G.A. pilot?.
Take 1.5% of your meagre pay, give you bad advice, stage a walkout and when non-union pilots walk-in to your job the union will drop you like a school bag.
Where else can the union solidarity put pressure on GA operators?.
CASA - think again.
AIRSERVICES - Ha!
FUEL SUPPLY - Independant operators and contractors, no luck there.
ENGINEERS - (see FUEL).
Don't like where you are - leave!.
Apply to a good operator. They are out there. Give you a hint. They are the ones that have been around a while, have good condition aircraft and a steady client base.
As as been mentioned many times over the years......
Operators are not the main problem. The biggest problem lies with Pilots themselves.
C'mon, what will a union do for the average G.A. pilot?.
Take 1.5% of your meagre pay, give you bad advice, stage a walkout and when non-union pilots walk-in to your job the union will drop you like a school bag.
Where else can the union solidarity put pressure on GA operators?.
CASA - think again.
AIRSERVICES - Ha!
FUEL SUPPLY - Independant operators and contractors, no luck there.
ENGINEERS - (see FUEL).
Don't like where you are - leave!.
Apply to a good operator. They are out there. Give you a hint. They are the ones that have been around a while, have good condition aircraft and a steady client base.
As as been mentioned many times over the years......
Operators are not the main problem. The biggest problem lies with Pilots themselves.
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The biggest problems lies with pilots themselves.
I find that hard to believe. Please explain what you mean.
So you are saying if a pilot gets well below the award wage and conditions, it is not the operators fault.
Its a bit like saying Saddam was a good leader for his people and the problem was with the rest of the world. I am sure Saddam believed that was the case.
You must be one of "those"operator's.
I find that hard to believe. Please explain what you mean.
So you are saying if a pilot gets well below the award wage and conditions, it is not the operators fault.
Its a bit like saying Saddam was a good leader for his people and the problem was with the rest of the world. I am sure Saddam believed that was the case.
You must be one of "those"operator's.
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Should have elaborated.
I believe one of the biggest problems for G.A. Pilots are their fellow Pilots.
There is no shortage of 'Comrades' willing to work for free or undercut wages to get a job. In order to fill that logbook, some Pilots will always accept below their worth
Pilots have free will. If they get below their entitlements - They can choose to move on or take action.
It has been done before - it can work.
It of course does not excuse those who take advantage. As Mr Hat said, they get it in the end. They go out of business or......
BTW: When I was in such a position, I did what most operators did - paid the right $$.
How 'bout YOU B-C-L?.
Did you ever/do you work for free?, screw over a fellow Pilot or let a low-down operator screw you up and down for years and take it meekly in order to fill that logbook?. I hope not.
Now as I don't know you (as you don't know me) I won't assume that you must be 'One of those Pilots'.
All I know is that on a regular basis, I often received CVs where Pilots stated that they will work for free or very little.
Actually, the first time I saw it was after the Pilot Strike when an ex-airline pilot took my job for less money.
And that, B-C-L, is where I think it all starts.....
I don't think anything else will work - as long as there are Pilots who are willing to work as slaves.
I believe one of the biggest problems for G.A. Pilots are their fellow Pilots.
There is no shortage of 'Comrades' willing to work for free or undercut wages to get a job. In order to fill that logbook, some Pilots will always accept below their worth
Pilots have free will. If they get below their entitlements - They can choose to move on or take action.
It has been done before - it can work.
It of course does not excuse those who take advantage. As Mr Hat said, they get it in the end. They go out of business or......
BTW: When I was in such a position, I did what most operators did - paid the right $$.
How 'bout YOU B-C-L?.
Did you ever/do you work for free?, screw over a fellow Pilot or let a low-down operator screw you up and down for years and take it meekly in order to fill that logbook?. I hope not.
Now as I don't know you (as you don't know me) I won't assume that you must be 'One of those Pilots'.
All I know is that on a regular basis, I often received CVs where Pilots stated that they will work for free or very little.
Actually, the first time I saw it was after the Pilot Strike when an ex-airline pilot took my job for less money.
And that, B-C-L, is where I think it all starts.....
I don't think anything else will work - as long as there are Pilots who are willing to work as slaves.
Last edited by Rich-Fine-Green; 26th Apr 2003 at 15:46.
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Ok, thanks R-F-G
I understand you now. But if pilots are willing to work for free, operators should not take advantage of the situation.
I remember when we always argued for the award with my previous employer, the CEO always replied "Why should I pay the award if I can pilots to work for free !!".
I understand you now. But if pilots are willing to work for free, operators should not take advantage of the situation.
I remember when we always argued for the award with my previous employer, the CEO always replied "Why should I pay the award if I can pilots to work for free !!".
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Yep, pilots are their own worst enemies. Working for free in a highly professional environment such as aviation is ludicrous. And what for? Just to get a few hours in a log book!! Give thought to the companies out there trying to do the right thing but having to compete against operators screwing their pilots and probably shortcutting in other areas as well. How do reputable companies survive in that environment? And what of the pilots that don't go to the airlines. They have to try and make a living in a GA that has been screwed up by those working for nothing or next to nothing.
Luckily there are a few larger corporations that won't use an Aviation company unless they pass their stringent audits. Some of these audits include checking that the pilots are paid at least award rates. I know of one large corporation that even audits the airlines and it is interesting to see what airlines are on their "blacklist". If a company dosn't pass it's audit than none of their personal are allowed to travel with that airline or operator.
Award rates are put in place to ensure employees aren't screwed. It takes into account experience, ratings and endorsements. And beleive me, the award for a fresh low hour cpl flying SE with minimum endorsements and ratings is very low so if a company can't even pay that wage it shouldn't be operating!! At least the award allows for a lower wage for those doing their "apprenticeship" untill they get more experience, more ratings and become generally more usefull to the operation.
And there is a union to protect pilots. Membership can be good insurance if you are being screwed by the operator or if after an accident one of your passengers tries to sue you and the company you fly for drops you like a hot potato!!
End of the day it is up to the pilot.
My advice is, if the company is screwing you than leave and find one that is going to pay at least award. There are a rew good companies out there trying to do the right thing.
Luckily there are a few larger corporations that won't use an Aviation company unless they pass their stringent audits. Some of these audits include checking that the pilots are paid at least award rates. I know of one large corporation that even audits the airlines and it is interesting to see what airlines are on their "blacklist". If a company dosn't pass it's audit than none of their personal are allowed to travel with that airline or operator.
Award rates are put in place to ensure employees aren't screwed. It takes into account experience, ratings and endorsements. And beleive me, the award for a fresh low hour cpl flying SE with minimum endorsements and ratings is very low so if a company can't even pay that wage it shouldn't be operating!! At least the award allows for a lower wage for those doing their "apprenticeship" untill they get more experience, more ratings and become generally more usefull to the operation.
And there is a union to protect pilots. Membership can be good insurance if you are being screwed by the operator or if after an accident one of your passengers tries to sue you and the company you fly for drops you like a hot potato!!
End of the day it is up to the pilot.
My advice is, if the company is screwing you than leave and find one that is going to pay at least award. There are a rew good companies out there trying to do the right thing.
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So what of those companies that purport themselves to be "out of GA" ?
Some of these companies require quite high minimum experience to work for them, but at the end of the day try to screw over pilots with regard meal allowances etc.
Also,IS there. or should there be senioroty in GA ?
Some of these companies require quite high minimum experience to work for them, but at the end of the day try to screw over pilots with regard meal allowances etc.
Also,IS there. or should there be senioroty in GA ?
"But if pilots are willing to work for free, operators should not take advantage of the situation"
Time you took a Reality Pill, son. I may agree with you, but that's not the way the real world works!
Time you took a Reality Pill, son. I may agree with you, but that's not the way the real world works!
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As a beancounter put it to me so eloquently some time back we are viewed as commodities by the companies. We all have the same ATPL so theoretically we are all the same. If we dont crash too often then companies seek to avail themselves of the commodity (pilot) for the cheapest price. There are other issues but basically thats how they see it.
If you accept this argument then we are no different to the sack of spuds at the supermarket. In our case, there are lots of spuds on the market so the price paid is low. Even worse, just to get a leg in the door at the supermarket there are some farmers who will give their spuds away for free. Supermarkets are not silly, if they can get free spuds they will use them.
Free spuds have been available in aviation since Christ wore shorts and nothing seems to change. There will always be some up and comer who will do it for zip or close too.
Qantas have even taken it to a new level. I wonder how Mr and Mrs SLF would feel if they knew that for much of the flight the aircraft was under the command of an F/O who had failed his upgrade and a 21 year old S/O still wet behind the ears . I digress, thats another thread.
If you accept this argument then we are no different to the sack of spuds at the supermarket. In our case, there are lots of spuds on the market so the price paid is low. Even worse, just to get a leg in the door at the supermarket there are some farmers who will give their spuds away for free. Supermarkets are not silly, if they can get free spuds they will use them.
Free spuds have been available in aviation since Christ wore shorts and nothing seems to change. There will always be some up and comer who will do it for zip or close too.
Qantas have even taken it to a new level. I wonder how Mr and Mrs SLF would feel if they knew that for much of the flight the aircraft was under the command of an F/O who had failed his upgrade and a 21 year old S/O still wet behind the ears . I digress, thats another thread.
Bonvol, by definition the F/O would never be in command of the aircraft. He or she may be manipulating the controls or more likely manipulating the FMS/AP. The person in command of the flight may be elsewhere.
Look at the marine equivalent. Look what has happened to the crews on merchant ships. The cheapest crews from third world countries, what makes anyone think aviation cannot go the same way?
Look at the marine equivalent. Look what has happened to the crews on merchant ships. The cheapest crews from third world countries, what makes anyone think aviation cannot go the same way?
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OPERATORS BECOMING PILOTS
Probably not an entirely correct statement however there have been several up here that were operators (&pilots) who then became dedicated pilots once getting out.
Many of these around?
The ones here I can remember:-
Anindilyakwa - GB
Mimi Air - JK
Wingz North - ??
Sure there are more around. Seemed to be the way to go a while ago, get a plane and AOC build the hours and bigger better higher faster awaits. Then there are those that well er um went the other way...
Many of these around?
The ones here I can remember:-
Anindilyakwa - GB
Mimi Air - JK
Wingz North - ??
Sure there are more around. Seemed to be the way to go a while ago, get a plane and AOC build the hours and bigger better higher faster awaits. Then there are those that well er um went the other way...
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And let's not forget :
FITZROY
CIRRUS
PACIFIC EAGLE
etc etc etc.
Fly by nighters, absolutley SCREW the genuine operator, and astuff the industry for everybody... I guess that TNT have finally learned their lesson after having sent many pilots... "elsewhere".... and will go with the reliable operator : aka GAM!
Rule #1: Never ever work FOR an ex pilot!
FITZROY
CIRRUS
PACIFIC EAGLE
etc etc etc.
Fly by nighters, absolutley SCREW the genuine operator, and astuff the industry for everybody... I guess that TNT have finally learned their lesson after having sent many pilots... "elsewhere".... and will go with the reliable operator : aka GAM!
Rule #1: Never ever work FOR an ex pilot!
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Porn star, I think you need to get a little less emotional and a little bit more in touch with the facts. You obviously have never worked for the pulse. Are your eyes green now?
Get a life
Get a life
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my 5 cents
I have to agree with what has been said before: "pilots are their own worst enemy"
Due to the large number of pilots competing for a low number of jobs there are those that will go to extreme lengths to secure a position ie work for free. Whilst in the short term they may get the job, eventually they will have to eat or they will get to a point (say 100hrs on type or three months in the company) were they want to be paid. He gets shown the door, along comes the next guy who will work for free and the vicious cycle continues.
never ever work for free!!!
However, most people will accept poor conditions to have a job and get those hours in the log book. Operators screw these pilots because they know there are 20 more pilots at the door waiting to take their place. For those of you who said "if you don't like it, leave" you obviously haven't tried to get a job in GA recently because without the hours there is nowhere to go. You get screwed, get your hours and then get out. They don't call it "hard yards" cause it's easy
VneII
Due to the large number of pilots competing for a low number of jobs there are those that will go to extreme lengths to secure a position ie work for free
. Whilst in the short term they may get the job, eventually they will have to eat or they will get to a point (say 100hrs on type or three months in the company) were they want to be paid. He gets shown the door, along comes the next guy who will work for free and the vicious cycle continues.never ever work for free!!!
However, most people will accept poor conditions to have a job and get those hours in the log book. Operators screw these pilots because they know there are 20 more pilots at the door waiting to take their place. For those of you who said "if you don't like it, leave" you obviously haven't tried to get a job in GA recently because without the hours there is nowhere to go. You get screwed, get your hours and then get out. They don't call it "hard yards" cause it's easy
VneII