NVFR v's MECIR
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NVFR v's MECIR
Hi All,
Just want to throw a question to the forum. When I completed my CPL I was under the impression that the natural progression was to start training for the NVFR. I was talked out of it by a wise instructor (no not Yoda) and did my MECIR instead. What are peoples thoughts on doing a NVFR if you plan on getting a MECIR which will supersede it...
Ang
Just want to throw a question to the forum. When I completed my CPL I was under the impression that the natural progression was to start training for the NVFR. I was talked out of it by a wise instructor (no not Yoda) and did my MECIR instead. What are peoples thoughts on doing a NVFR if you plan on getting a MECIR which will supersede it...
Ang
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NVFR vs MECIR
Hi Ang -
I took the road of CPL, NVFR, Instructor Rating, MECIR.
It was good at the time, as after my CPL, I did have the money for a MECIR, but was advised that a NVFR was sufficient, for the time being and an Instructor rating was the better way to go.
In the end it was, as I found myself working sooner, building hours, and also gaining more experience in night flying ( good for instrument flying ) and also teaching Basic IF and learning more about ADF/VOR etc.
As I was working I was able to use the company's sim for free, and also when I did start my MECIR training, I was not being charged for an instructor. I ended up saving quite a bit of money.
I took the road of CPL, NVFR, Instructor Rating, MECIR.
It was good at the time, as after my CPL, I did have the money for a MECIR, but was advised that a NVFR was sufficient, for the time being and an Instructor rating was the better way to go.
In the end it was, as I found myself working sooner, building hours, and also gaining more experience in night flying ( good for instrument flying ) and also teaching Basic IF and learning more about ADF/VOR etc.
As I was working I was able to use the company's sim for free, and also when I did start my MECIR training, I was not being charged for an instructor. I ended up saving quite a bit of money.
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nvfr
I don' believe nvfr is superseded your ir. You are only permitted to fly at night IFR, unless you meet the requirements for NVFR with respect to min hours and recency. Obviously recencency will be hard to meet as all your flying has been IFR. Ironic I know, but its just the way it is. There is alot of debate around on nvfr and some of the dangers, I for one think nvfr can be potentially dangerous as there is minimal instrument training when the potential for encountering IFR conditions is much greater than daytime. Even studying the AFOR and TAF's won't help on a dark night with no distinguishable horizon, unless you only flight around in view of towns and the like all the time. But anyway if you want to fly vfr at night you will have to do the training (its only 10 hours anyway,and can be done as part of your cpl to reduce costs) and sit the flight test.
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It used to be that you could not hold a CPL until you had a NVFR, then known as a Night VMC. Not sure when the requirement was dropped but some time ago. I'm of the opinion that a NVFR should still be a prerequisite for a CPL.
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8 8th's Blue has hit the nail on the head. How can you get Night VFR experience / recency when flying around night IFR. The CIR recency is also much more demanding than Night VFR recency. The CIR requires 5 hours in command at night. Who wants to fly circuits for 5 hours? You might one day fly an aircraft that only is Night VFR. Will you be flying IFR illegally? The Night VFR rating is also a good starting point for the Nav. Aid work.
N.VFR privileges using a CIR only last as long as the IR is valid ie let the IR lapse & so does the N.VFR ability. A NVFR is a permanent rating. As long as you maintain recency then away you go.
This can have limitations eg flying in to Scone, NSW at night.
Similary, N.VFR LSALT can be calculated differently. This can make the difference between being able to go, and not going.
A CIR doesn't automatically qualify you to use N.VFR procedures. You must complete the specified N.VFR experience first.
This can have limitations eg flying in to Scone, NSW at night.
Similary, N.VFR LSALT can be calculated differently. This can make the difference between being able to go, and not going.
A CIR doesn't automatically qualify you to use N.VFR procedures. You must complete the specified N.VFR experience first.
Tinstaafl has the best advice so far.It is another string to the bow. If for some reason you let your CIR lapse you can still go NVFR if you hold the rating.
I also agree that if possible include some night work in your CPL training and get the rating.
I also agree that if possible include some night work in your CPL training and get the rating.
You cannot do charter at night if you dont have a CIR....
CAO 40.2.2
3 AUTHORITY GIVEN BY RATING
3.1 Subject to subsections 5 and 6, a night V.F.R. rating authorises the holder of
the rating:
(a) in the case of an aeroplane grade of night V.F.R. rating to fly as pilot in
command of aeroplanes having a take-off weight not exceeding 5700kg on
private or aerial work flights within Australia by night under the V.F.R.; or
3 AUTHORITY GIVEN BY RATING
3.1 Subject to subsections 5 and 6, a night V.F.R. rating authorises the holder of
the rating:
(a) in the case of an aeroplane grade of night V.F.R. rating to fly as pilot in
command of aeroplanes having a take-off weight not exceeding 5700kg on
private or aerial work flights within Australia by night under the V.F.R.; or
As always you are correct swh however I think the point being made is that there are uses for a NVFR rating in Commercial Ops. For example, returning to base empty after last light, ferry flights, any & all aerial work flights. All of which can be done with a lapsed CIR.
Why don't you do the NVFR before the CPL?
Instead of doing CPL nav after CPL nav just to meet the 70 dual hours, do a NVFR. Wont really cost you anything in the end as you have to pay for that person next to you in the cokcpit regardless.
Instead of doing CPL nav after CPL nav just to meet the 70 dual hours, do a NVFR. Wont really cost you anything in the end as you have to pay for that person next to you in the cokcpit regardless.
You can even extend this to do the 5 hours night command as part of the 70 or 100 hrs command for either the 150 hr intergrated or 200 hr std course. This is useful to gain an unrestricted CIR (ie not limited to day only).
If you get the 50 hrs cross county command up you can even get a CIR before the CPL.
You can only add a rating to a licence, so you need to do a PPL to do either a NVFR ot CIR before a CPL. Night solo circuits can be done on a student lincece under CAR 5.01A prior to holding a licence to build the 5 hours up.
If you get the 50 hrs cross county command up you can even get a CIR before the CPL.
You can only add a rating to a licence, so you need to do a PPL to do either a NVFR ot CIR before a CPL. Night solo circuits can be done on a student lincece under CAR 5.01A prior to holding a licence to build the 5 hours up.
Properly structured a PPL, NVFR rating & retractable endorsement can be included for a *very* small additional cost to doing a 'plain' CPL.
The only additional costs are the two flight test related fees. Even that cost is not as great as it seems. The tests' flight times count towards the min. experience needed for the CPL.
In effect you are only paying the additional component of the flight caused by it being a test. The rest of that particular flight's cost is already accounted for in the overall course.
Some things are fortuitous eg using CSU/retract for that component of the training instead of a CSU/fixed.
Last time I was a CFI I wrote a combined PPL, NVFR, CSU/retract, CPL course. All hours up to the CPL test were counted as part of the CPL mins.
There was even the option to add a basic aero endorement. Using a multi added 5 hrs ie a min 155hr course. It could have been kept at 150 but would have made it nearly impossible to retain commonality of lessons & optional components.
It's also possible to integrate the IF training done during these bits into a follow on CIR, thereby reducing the CIR min. mandatory training time by 10hrs.
Took me bloody months to work it all out & make sure every hour requirement was met & then write the course.
Effectively every student was training for a CPL & IR. They just interrupted their training once they had reached their desired level. It had the advantage of enabling a PPL student to decide to continue to a CPL and still use a 150 hr syllabus instead of having to use the 200 hr one.
Also 150 hr CPL students were able & encouraged to take friends & family on extended 'away' trips eg Ayers Rock or where ever. Not possible if kept as an SPL until the CPL test.
The only additional costs are the two flight test related fees. Even that cost is not as great as it seems. The tests' flight times count towards the min. experience needed for the CPL.
In effect you are only paying the additional component of the flight caused by it being a test. The rest of that particular flight's cost is already accounted for in the overall course.
Some things are fortuitous eg using CSU/retract for that component of the training instead of a CSU/fixed.
Last time I was a CFI I wrote a combined PPL, NVFR, CSU/retract, CPL course. All hours up to the CPL test were counted as part of the CPL mins.
There was even the option to add a basic aero endorement. Using a multi added 5 hrs ie a min 155hr course. It could have been kept at 150 but would have made it nearly impossible to retain commonality of lessons & optional components.
It's also possible to integrate the IF training done during these bits into a follow on CIR, thereby reducing the CIR min. mandatory training time by 10hrs.
Took me bloody months to work it all out & make sure every hour requirement was met & then write the course.
Effectively every student was training for a CPL & IR. They just interrupted their training once they had reached their desired level. It had the advantage of enabling a PPL student to decide to continue to a CPL and still use a 150 hr syllabus instead of having to use the 200 hr one.
Also 150 hr CPL students were able & encouraged to take friends & family on extended 'away' trips eg Ayers Rock or where ever. Not possible if kept as an SPL until the CPL test.
Last edited by Tinstaafl; 26th Jan 2003 at 15:51.
