Fatal crash pilot should not have flown: coroner
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Fatal crash pilot should not have flown: coroner
ABC news online:
Posted: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 19:15 AEDT
Fatal crash pilot should not have flown: coroner
The Western Australian Coroner has found a plane crash that killed four police at Newman in the Pilbara was avoidable.
Alistair Hope handed down his findings today after hearing more than two weeks of evidence about the crash, which happened on Australia Day last year.
He found the police service's decision to post to Karratha the pilot of the plane, Senior Constable Donald Everett, was a major contributing factor.
Mr Hope says Senior Constable Everett was not qualified to fly twin-engined planes at night and should not have been made a sole pilot in a remote region like the Pilbara.
He recommended the Police Air Support Unit look outside the service for experienced pilots.
Posted: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 19:15 AEDT
Fatal crash pilot should not have flown: coroner
The Western Australian Coroner has found a plane crash that killed four police at Newman in the Pilbara was avoidable.
Alistair Hope handed down his findings today after hearing more than two weeks of evidence about the crash, which happened on Australia Day last year.
He found the police service's decision to post to Karratha the pilot of the plane, Senior Constable Donald Everett, was a major contributing factor.
Mr Hope says Senior Constable Everett was not qualified to fly twin-engined planes at night and should not have been made a sole pilot in a remote region like the Pilbara.
He recommended the Police Air Support Unit look outside the service for experienced pilots.
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The Coroner also stated that the Pilot was not qualified to navigate the aircraft by its instruments....... The aircraft had completed the flight, it was in the circuit area. What was missing was fuel management of the aircraft.
The best thing to come out of the enquiry is the validation of professional civilian pilots flying the aircraft instead of full time Police officers who are in essence part time pilots. I believe that the potential for disaster will always be present as long as Police are running an aviation business..
Sincere condolences to the families of the crash victims.
pirg
The best thing to come out of the enquiry is the validation of professional civilian pilots flying the aircraft instead of full time Police officers who are in essence part time pilots. I believe that the potential for disaster will always be present as long as Police are running an aviation business..
Sincere condolences to the families of the crash victims.
pirg
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Altho sworn members, I think you will find that most of the Police Air Wings are full time pilots (with no Police duties),and generally bloody good ones, either fixed wing or helo.
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Hurlingham
I'm not sure in which part of Oz you reside, but I honestly don't know that that applies to West Oz.
I'm sure it does in Qld, Vic, NT and maybe SA but as for the rest.
Certainly the aforementioned are properly resourced with real aircraft, which is a start.
How the WA mob think they are going to cover a state as big as all the others combined with a C310 the odd Chieftain and a helo they can't afford to fly escapes me.
It was sadly only a matter of time, it is tragic that it takes deaths to make that wake up call.
They have for many years steadfastly resisted the obvious, or, they lack the information and skills to communicate the obvious to their political masters, who BTW enjoy a B200 and Citation, both of which would be much much more usefully employed by the Police Service than the pollies attending the opening of fetes, Garden parties and their mouths.
I'm not sure in which part of Oz you reside, but I honestly don't know that that applies to West Oz.
I'm sure it does in Qld, Vic, NT and maybe SA but as for the rest.
Certainly the aforementioned are properly resourced with real aircraft, which is a start.
How the WA mob think they are going to cover a state as big as all the others combined with a C310 the odd Chieftain and a helo they can't afford to fly escapes me.
It was sadly only a matter of time, it is tragic that it takes deaths to make that wake up call.
They have for many years steadfastly resisted the obvious, or, they lack the information and skills to communicate the obvious to their political masters, who BTW enjoy a B200 and Citation, both of which would be much much more usefully employed by the Police Service than the pollies attending the opening of fetes, Garden parties and their mouths.
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I have read with interest the various reports which have been published regarding the level of skill and competancy of the Police pilot in command of the ill fated 310 at Newman.
The Pilot was not qualified, had training difficulties, eye sight issues and tended to panic when encountering an emergency, are to name but a few reports. The coroner has recorded that such reports are now facts. (dead men tell no tales)
I reiterate that the flight had all but completed, the Pilot had aviated, navigated and arrived over head..... lack of fuel system management was found to have preceded the impact.
What management process allowed this Pilot to be placed in such an environment? Why did the Chief Pilot permit this to occur. What safety management systems were in place to prevent this circumstance from occurring ?
Obviously the pilot must be aportioned some blame in this tragic event, however without hesitation I would suggest that the police management must accept the greater portion for permitting this to occur.
Likewise where was CASA in all of this... ?????
It is evident that Police persons have a career path or pecking order that is linked to their pay cheques... 310 pilot 55 - 60k per annum. Rock the boat and back to pounding the beat you go. What pressure was applied to this pilot to get the job done?
Now put yourself in that position, walking the beat means being relieved of flying duties but keep the money or give up the money and try to get a position in GA to keep flying..... I guess no rocking the boat sounds pretty good.
I am very confident that a civillian Pilot would not compromise his life, his passengers lives or his chances with Cathay or Qantas over any safety issue and I would hope that CASA would be consulted if the Operations Manager or Chief Pilot or even the Commissioner of Police was not doing his job. A civillian Pilot would have the support of the aviation community where he/she would be free to raise well founded concerns without fear of being sent to confront criminals.
For a state the size of Western Australia, Turbines are the only suitable option and professional Civillian Pilots as the Coroner has pointed out should be employed.
Let the Police ride as passengers and do the policing and let the professional civillian air crews do the flying.
The Coroner forgot to add the Police should; Get proffessional, Get Turbines, Get Training, Get a Budget, Get out of aviation and Get Civillians.
PIRG
The Pilot was not qualified, had training difficulties, eye sight issues and tended to panic when encountering an emergency, are to name but a few reports. The coroner has recorded that such reports are now facts. (dead men tell no tales)
I reiterate that the flight had all but completed, the Pilot had aviated, navigated and arrived over head..... lack of fuel system management was found to have preceded the impact.
What management process allowed this Pilot to be placed in such an environment? Why did the Chief Pilot permit this to occur. What safety management systems were in place to prevent this circumstance from occurring ?
Obviously the pilot must be aportioned some blame in this tragic event, however without hesitation I would suggest that the police management must accept the greater portion for permitting this to occur.
Likewise where was CASA in all of this... ?????
It is evident that Police persons have a career path or pecking order that is linked to their pay cheques... 310 pilot 55 - 60k per annum. Rock the boat and back to pounding the beat you go. What pressure was applied to this pilot to get the job done?
Now put yourself in that position, walking the beat means being relieved of flying duties but keep the money or give up the money and try to get a position in GA to keep flying..... I guess no rocking the boat sounds pretty good.
I am very confident that a civillian Pilot would not compromise his life, his passengers lives or his chances with Cathay or Qantas over any safety issue and I would hope that CASA would be consulted if the Operations Manager or Chief Pilot or even the Commissioner of Police was not doing his job. A civillian Pilot would have the support of the aviation community where he/she would be free to raise well founded concerns without fear of being sent to confront criminals.
For a state the size of Western Australia, Turbines are the only suitable option and professional Civillian Pilots as the Coroner has pointed out should be employed.
Let the Police ride as passengers and do the policing and let the professional civillian air crews do the flying.
The Coroner forgot to add the Police should; Get proffessional, Get Turbines, Get Training, Get a Budget, Get out of aviation and Get Civillians.
PIRG
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Safeskiesabove
Below is a record of some of the Coroner's findings.. As you should know he is the final authority on what happened and the causes.
The only difference is that if this tragic event was attributed to a civillian operator I have no doubt the Chief Pilot, Op's manager and Operators would be facing criminal charges for negligence and in any event CASA would have closed them down.
Leave the emotion aside concentrate on the facts and issue at hand... please leave the rhetoric and expletives out of your posts/messages if you wish to receive a response.
Police air unit under fire 18/12/2002 West Aust Newspaper
By Minh Lam
CORONER Alastair Hope reprimanded the WA Police Service yesterday, saying it allowed air safety to be compromised through factors such as budgetary concerns, inadequate pilot training procedures and failure to follow an internal air operations manual.
He said regular safety audits of the police air support unit should be carried out and civilian pilots hired to ensure there was not a repeat of the Newman air crash which killed four officers in January last year.
Mr Hope was delivering his findings into the deaths of police pilot Sen. Const. Donald Everett, 49, and his passengers Sen. Const. Phillip Ruland, 32, First Class Const. David Dewar, 31, and Const. David Capes, 27.
The men were killed when their twin-engined Cessna 310R crashed just short of landing at Newman airport.
In finding the deaths arose by way of accident, Mr Hope said Sen. Const. Everett should never have piloted the plane because he did not have the necessary qualifications.
"There is a need for the air support unit to be a professional organisation comprising skilled and highly trained pilots and appropriate, well-maintained aircraft," he said.
"In my view the air support unit did not provide the deceased officers with a service of that quality."
Mr Hope said Sen. Const. Everett was the sole pilot whose responsibility was the entire Pilbara and Kimberley region when he was sent to Karratha at the beginning of January last year.
He was only a trainee line pilot and had not finished learning how to navigate using the plane's instruments, meaning he was breaching the unit's operations manual by flying on the night of the crash.
Family members of the men killed wept as Mr Hope delivered the findings and briefly mentioned personal details about each officer.
Outside the court, the families' lawyer, Alan Skinner, said they were very happy with the way the inquest was conducted and Mr Hope's recommendations.
"They are hopeful that those recommendations are carried out by the West Australian police force," Mr Skinner said.
Assistant Commissioner John Standing said after the finding: "This finding really portrays just how dangerous and how difficult policing is across the State.
"We also believe the coroner's verdict also highlights the maturity of the Western Australian Police Service in relation to its openness during the investigation and subsequently this inquest."
PIRG
Below is a record of some of the Coroner's findings.. As you should know he is the final authority on what happened and the causes.
The only difference is that if this tragic event was attributed to a civillian operator I have no doubt the Chief Pilot, Op's manager and Operators would be facing criminal charges for negligence and in any event CASA would have closed them down.
Leave the emotion aside concentrate on the facts and issue at hand... please leave the rhetoric and expletives out of your posts/messages if you wish to receive a response.
Police air unit under fire 18/12/2002 West Aust Newspaper
By Minh Lam
CORONER Alastair Hope reprimanded the WA Police Service yesterday, saying it allowed air safety to be compromised through factors such as budgetary concerns, inadequate pilot training procedures and failure to follow an internal air operations manual.
He said regular safety audits of the police air support unit should be carried out and civilian pilots hired to ensure there was not a repeat of the Newman air crash which killed four officers in January last year.
Mr Hope was delivering his findings into the deaths of police pilot Sen. Const. Donald Everett, 49, and his passengers Sen. Const. Phillip Ruland, 32, First Class Const. David Dewar, 31, and Const. David Capes, 27.
The men were killed when their twin-engined Cessna 310R crashed just short of landing at Newman airport.
In finding the deaths arose by way of accident, Mr Hope said Sen. Const. Everett should never have piloted the plane because he did not have the necessary qualifications.
"There is a need for the air support unit to be a professional organisation comprising skilled and highly trained pilots and appropriate, well-maintained aircraft," he said.
"In my view the air support unit did not provide the deceased officers with a service of that quality."
Mr Hope said Sen. Const. Everett was the sole pilot whose responsibility was the entire Pilbara and Kimberley region when he was sent to Karratha at the beginning of January last year.
He was only a trainee line pilot and had not finished learning how to navigate using the plane's instruments, meaning he was breaching the unit's operations manual by flying on the night of the crash.
Family members of the men killed wept as Mr Hope delivered the findings and briefly mentioned personal details about each officer.
Outside the court, the families' lawyer, Alan Skinner, said they were very happy with the way the inquest was conducted and Mr Hope's recommendations.
"They are hopeful that those recommendations are carried out by the West Australian police force," Mr Skinner said.
Assistant Commissioner John Standing said after the finding: "This finding really portrays just how dangerous and how difficult policing is across the State.
"We also believe the coroner's verdict also highlights the maturity of the Western Australian Police Service in relation to its openness during the investigation and subsequently this inquest."
PIRG
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Push it real good,
You make a lot of generalisations regarding this subject and in the most thats all it seems to be. You attack Police Aviation on the basis of an Operation in 1 State out of the 6 States/2 Territorys of Australia.
Just a few points (out of the many) that I consider not quite correct (from my acknowldeged 2nd hand information) and like to comment on.
That may very well be the case in W.A. but check your facts regarding the other States and Territories. N.T. & QLD are two operations crewed by, to use your words " professional civillian air crews", and its my understanding from knowing some of these guys are that they are very high time experienced "civillian" pilots flying prety sophisticated equipment.
It is also my understanding that Vic and and NSW also do most, if not all, their recruiting outside the Police Service.
On what do you base this? There have been many deaths in general aviation where this has not been the case. One recent example being the smash north of Cairns a few years ago. The Senior Base Pilot of the largest Shrike operator in Australia killed himself and 3/4? passengers by hitting a mountain flying under Visual Flight Rules, whilst in CLOUD, some 2400 feet below LSAT. That company wasn't closed down, didn't face criminal charges etc.
Why should Police get out of operating Aviation on the basis of this crash. A well run, budgeted, equiped and trained Police Air Unit would be no different from a well run Gereral Aviation Company with the added bonus of not having to worry about profits, with probably a more stable and long serving crew with job specific training. Very similiar I would imagine to the Air Ambulance and RFDS type set up.
The one thing that I do agree with with you, however, is that pilot recruitment should be from outside the Police Service which would allow a much greater experience base to select from.
Finally I must ask....whats the barrow do you push, you appear to have some agenda about all this.
You make a lot of generalisations regarding this subject and in the most thats all it seems to be. You attack Police Aviation on the basis of an Operation in 1 State out of the 6 States/2 Territorys of Australia.
Just a few points (out of the many) that I consider not quite correct (from my acknowldeged 2nd hand information) and like to comment on.
Now put yourself in that position, walking the beat means being relieved of flying duties but keep the money or give up the money and try to get a position in GA to keep flying..... I guess no rocking the boat sounds pretty good.
It is also my understanding that Vic and and NSW also do most, if not all, their recruiting outside the Police Service.
I have no doubt the Chief Pilot, Op's manager and Operators would be facing criminal charges for negligence and in any event CASA would have closed them down.
The Coroner forgot to add the Police should; Get proffessional, Get Turbines, Get Training, Get a Budget, Get out of aviation and Get Civillians.
The one thing that I do agree with with you, however, is that pilot recruitment should be from outside the Police Service which would allow a much greater experience base to select from.
Finally I must ask....whats the barrow do you push, you appear to have some agenda about all this.
Last edited by Square Bear; 24th Dec 2002 at 11:12.
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Push it real good.
Methinks you 'pull it too hard!'.
Firstly coroners are not the final authority. Such issues may go considerably further in the court system such as Air Ontario discovered at Dryden and Air New Zealand at Mt Erebus - Royal commission, high court, privy council…
Secondly the Royal Canadian Mounted Police operate 43 airplanes (mostly turbine) flown by some eighty officers in some pretty demanding conditions, and do a damn good job of it. To say that civilian pilots are more professional than police pilots is highly debatable. Well disciplined police officers would probably provide a better end product than many of the young folk who enter the industry without life experiences. How many of your police air wings in Australia use former officers in a civilian capacity to pilot their airplanes?
No pilot will compromise his life unless he hopes to depart the gene pool. For any corporate aviation department to be successful requires a lot of support and understanding from management. Pilots will do the best they can with the equipment and training they have at their disposal. It is up to management to ensure that such equipment and training meets the demands that they impose. Systems fail and one would hope that the managers of this system would look closely at options to improve and consequences if they pursue the industry approach. Cost cutting for competition never resulted in an effective system.
PIRG, you don’t spell so well for a professional – get a dictionary!
No rhetoric or emotion in this post.
Sincere condolences to all concerned.
Mount'in Man
Methinks you 'pull it too hard!'.
Firstly coroners are not the final authority. Such issues may go considerably further in the court system such as Air Ontario discovered at Dryden and Air New Zealand at Mt Erebus - Royal commission, high court, privy council…
Secondly the Royal Canadian Mounted Police operate 43 airplanes (mostly turbine) flown by some eighty officers in some pretty demanding conditions, and do a damn good job of it. To say that civilian pilots are more professional than police pilots is highly debatable. Well disciplined police officers would probably provide a better end product than many of the young folk who enter the industry without life experiences. How many of your police air wings in Australia use former officers in a civilian capacity to pilot their airplanes?
No pilot will compromise his life unless he hopes to depart the gene pool. For any corporate aviation department to be successful requires a lot of support and understanding from management. Pilots will do the best they can with the equipment and training they have at their disposal. It is up to management to ensure that such equipment and training meets the demands that they impose. Systems fail and one would hope that the managers of this system would look closely at options to improve and consequences if they pursue the industry approach. Cost cutting for competition never resulted in an effective system.
PIRG, you don’t spell so well for a professional – get a dictionary!
No rhetoric or emotion in this post.
Sincere condolences to all concerned.
Mount'in Man
Seasonally Adjusted
Assistant Commissioner John Standing said, "This finding really portrays just how dangerous and how difficult policing is across the State."
Well how about that! And what exactly does this have to do with the enquiry? I think the man is a twit and should keep his ill-informed comments to himself.
The "top brass" have a lot to answer for in this sorry mess and sprouting dribble like, "We also believe the coroner's verdict also highlights the maturity of the Western Australian Police Service in relation to its openness during the investigation and subsequently this inquest." does nothing to improve their image.
They should accept some responsibility for what occurred and take steps to ensure it never happens again. This will not be possible whilst they have their collective heads up their collective a*ses.
Well how about that! And what exactly does this have to do with the enquiry? I think the man is a twit and should keep his ill-informed comments to himself.
The "top brass" have a lot to answer for in this sorry mess and sprouting dribble like, "We also believe the coroner's verdict also highlights the maturity of the Western Australian Police Service in relation to its openness during the investigation and subsequently this inquest." does nothing to improve their image.
They should accept some responsibility for what occurred and take steps to ensure it never happens again. This will not be possible whilst they have their collective heads up their collective a*ses.
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There is a very valid point made here by the coroner.
"There is a need for the air support unit to be a professional organisation comprising skilled and highly trained pilots and appropriate, well-maintained aircraft," he said.
Regardless of whether police officers or professional pilots are operating this aircraft aviation safety at this level is:
“Competent pilots flying serviceable aircraft”
Believe me this is something general aviation has lost sight of………….
"There is a need for the air support unit to be a professional organisation comprising skilled and highly trained pilots and appropriate, well-maintained aircraft," he said.
Regardless of whether police officers or professional pilots are operating this aircraft aviation safety at this level is:
“Competent pilots flying serviceable aircraft”
Believe me this is something general aviation has lost sight of………….
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Quote Assistant Commissioner John Standing
"We also believe the coroner's verdict also highlights the maturity of the Western Australian Police Service in relation to its openness during the investigation and subsequently this inquest."
What the Hell does this mean ?????
We had the choice to cover it up ? We had the choice not to cooperate with the Coroners inquiry ? But we decided to tell the truth out of the spirit of cooperation...
The Coroner just found that the Police ran a sub-standard operation that regularly ignored its own operations manual, ignored safety and allowed an unqualified pilot to conduct passenger op's at night in excess of the duty time limits etc etc.
Maturity was a wake up call minutes after the 310 went in at Newman.
I am sure cover up was considered, however what with a Royal Commission into Police Corruption happening over in the west at the same time.... John you didn't have any choice at all......
If this was a charter operator who killed 4 paying public passengers I have no doubt their AOC would be cancelled for sure and the Chief Pilot and Directors held to account. Every trainee Pilot will bust a gut to fly and it is up to the management to make sure it is safe..
Maybe because the victims were all Police that makes it different.
"We also believe the coroner's verdict also highlights the maturity of the Western Australian Police Service in relation to its openness during the investigation and subsequently this inquest."
What the Hell does this mean ?????
We had the choice to cover it up ? We had the choice not to cooperate with the Coroners inquiry ? But we decided to tell the truth out of the spirit of cooperation...
The Coroner just found that the Police ran a sub-standard operation that regularly ignored its own operations manual, ignored safety and allowed an unqualified pilot to conduct passenger op's at night in excess of the duty time limits etc etc.
Maturity was a wake up call minutes after the 310 went in at Newman.
I am sure cover up was considered, however what with a Royal Commission into Police Corruption happening over in the west at the same time.... John you didn't have any choice at all......
If this was a charter operator who killed 4 paying public passengers I have no doubt their AOC would be cancelled for sure and the Chief Pilot and Directors held to account. Every trainee Pilot will bust a gut to fly and it is up to the management to make sure it is safe..
Maybe because the victims were all Police that makes it different.
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Police pilots v Civilan pilots
Ref the tradgic accident in Newman WA. I think from where I sit that we shouldn't try to pinpiont the blame of an accident on the background of a pilots previous employment, but more to the point the background of the inhouse training and prior experience of a pilot to forfill a particular specialised type of operational flying required to carry out his or her roll within the job your employed to carry out . My thoughts go back to the EMS chopper that crashed in fog due to fuel starvation in Marlborough central QLD killing all five on board. Then 9 months later their new state of the art chopper ditches by their 10000hr plus chief pilot 132nm out to sea under NVFR rules! I recall the service had a near fatal incident not long befor these involving an oxygen explosion. I read the BASI report on the Marlborough accident but have yet to read anything on the ditching incident. I should think that is a lot for young players to learn from both accidents as has been brought out in the WA accident. I understand from reliable sourses that the rescue service was independendtly audited by three different companys. Nothing has been made public as yet. I, as I'm sure the community of central QLD, would like to read the Basi report on the ditching as well as the recomendations from the Safety audits. What were the CASA findings in both cases? Are the same pilots still operating there? Where they involved in the tail rotor accident not long after the ditching? What conditions have been changed if any? Was the board found to be lacking in its roll? What measures have been put in place to prevent incidents turning into accidents in the future.
Just plane bad luck or just bad management.
Burger
Just plane bad luck or just bad management.
Burger
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Burger, all good points but there is some need for accuracy here. I understand that the central Qld operator you refer to now no-longer exists. The tail rotor strike occurred to another operator working under contract. The ATSB report for the ditching has not been issued yet.
I believe that often, many operators particularly in EMS and police support get themselves into trouble more through ignorance rather than malice. The ones that do get into trouble have rarely looked at the big picture thinking that, for example, having an experienced pilot will answer all the issues. When it comes to managing anything, I believe it is the management capability that is more important than any particular specialisation. Good managers listen to their experts and seek out information to help them make decisions.
Alas, good managers are very few and far between.
I believe that often, many operators particularly in EMS and police support get themselves into trouble more through ignorance rather than malice. The ones that do get into trouble have rarely looked at the big picture thinking that, for example, having an experienced pilot will answer all the issues. When it comes to managing anything, I believe it is the management capability that is more important than any particular specialisation. Good managers listen to their experts and seek out information to help them make decisions.
Alas, good managers are very few and far between.
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NO FUNDS NO SAFETY
Funding is essential to ensure a high level of safety.
More than adequate Funding ensures that staff are remunerated correctly, which in turn attracts professionals to the fold. (not a problem here because the police pilots earn 55-65 K as cops, not crew)
Funding ensures proper hours flown during training, endorsements and check rides.
Funding ensures aircraft are properly maintained and up graded.
(WA needs turbine aircraft to provide any effective service)
Funding was the one commodity that I suggest that was severely restricted before this sorry and tragic mess.
I happen to know a pilot who has since left the wa air support operation and upon perusing his log book, 1.2 hours in a period of 1 year was spent by the Police on recurrent training. (no FUNDS) Everything else was paid for by the pilot.. (nothing unusual here, however this only encourages pilots to seek out cheap training)
It is a well known fact that the WA Police have had major funding problems and as the coroner is reported to have found, management were totally preoccupied with budget......
No Funding NO SAFETY.
Comments from Assistant Commissioners about maturity and openess are very empty, of absolutely no value at all and display how far removed from professional aviators the Police management is.
Especially when Management are now apparently paying 750 K compensation to each victims families in a quiet deal....
If that funding was spent on training and turbine aircraft in the first place instead of scrimping on budget, I doubt we would be making comment here.
More than adequate Funding ensures that staff are remunerated correctly, which in turn attracts professionals to the fold. (not a problem here because the police pilots earn 55-65 K as cops, not crew)
Funding ensures proper hours flown during training, endorsements and check rides.
Funding ensures aircraft are properly maintained and up graded.
(WA needs turbine aircraft to provide any effective service)
Funding was the one commodity that I suggest that was severely restricted before this sorry and tragic mess.
I happen to know a pilot who has since left the wa air support operation and upon perusing his log book, 1.2 hours in a period of 1 year was spent by the Police on recurrent training. (no FUNDS) Everything else was paid for by the pilot.. (nothing unusual here, however this only encourages pilots to seek out cheap training)
It is a well known fact that the WA Police have had major funding problems and as the coroner is reported to have found, management were totally preoccupied with budget......
No Funding NO SAFETY.
Comments from Assistant Commissioners about maturity and openess are very empty, of absolutely no value at all and display how far removed from professional aviators the Police management is.
Especially when Management are now apparently paying 750 K compensation to each victims families in a quiet deal....
If that funding was spent on training and turbine aircraft in the first place instead of scrimping on budget, I doubt we would be making comment here.
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NO FURTHER COMMENT YOUR HONOR
Here is an example of another tragic event reported by a ppruner on another forum. I post it here to demonstrate how quickly the CAA in that country moved to cancel a commercial operators AOC after such a tragedy.
Although the actual causes attributed to the crash are different from the Police crash in WA, the end result is the same. The root causes of poor safety management and negligence on the part of the management team from Chief Pilot - Management head are identicle.
This Coroner does not blame the Pilot as it was management who put him in the cockpit in the first place. (for full story go to Reporting point forum) The pilot of the WA Police crash should not be blamed either.. Management put him there.
I reiterate, "Maybe because all the victims were Police, that makes it different" !!
One things for sure no one in the Police will be held accountable for this crash. If this were a Police car accident with the same result, bet some one would lose their licence/job at least....
No further comment your Honor
From The New Zealand Herald :
Airline's approach to safety deplorable, says coroner
30.12.2002
11.45am
Inadequate safety procedures and a lack of anti-icing equipment caused a fatal crash in the Tararua Ranges five years ago, says Wellington coroner Garry Evans says.
Timothy Thompson, 27, was killed when the twin-engine Beechcraft Baron aircraft he was flying from Palmerston North to Christchurch crashed 2km southeast of Paraparaumu on June 11, 1997.
The company that owned the plane, United Aviation, went into receivership in August 1997, with the Civil Aviation Authority permanently revoking its operating certificate the following month.
In his findings, Mr Evans said the court was satisfied the cause of the crash "was the act of United Aviation in causing or permitting him to fly an aircraft not equipped with anti-icing or de-icing equipment or with ice detection lights on a winter's night freight flight".
The safety culture at United Aviation "left very much to be desired" and there was no way to ensure that Mr Thompson understood or complied with the company's operating procedures.
"United Aviation failed to ensure that Mr Thompson had... sufficient knowledge of the dangers associated with in-flight icing conditions to plan to avoid those hazards," Mr Evans said.
"Mr Thompson had carried out only one return trip from Palmerston North to Christchurch during winter months... the aircraft being flown by him was not approved for flight in forecast or known icing conditions."
Mr Thompson could not be criticised for failing to recognise the dangers of the icing conditions.
Mr Evans said it was possible that carbon monoxide poisoning caused by a faulty heater in the plane had also contributed to the crash. The gas could have impaired Mr Thompson's performance and caused mental confusion.
"The failures on the part of United Aviation.... were serious, fundamental in nature and are to be deplored," Mr Evans said.
"Mr Thompson's death was preventable."
[B]
Although the actual causes attributed to the crash are different from the Police crash in WA, the end result is the same. The root causes of poor safety management and negligence on the part of the management team from Chief Pilot - Management head are identicle.
This Coroner does not blame the Pilot as it was management who put him in the cockpit in the first place. (for full story go to Reporting point forum) The pilot of the WA Police crash should not be blamed either.. Management put him there.
I reiterate, "Maybe because all the victims were Police, that makes it different" !!
One things for sure no one in the Police will be held accountable for this crash. If this were a Police car accident with the same result, bet some one would lose their licence/job at least....
No further comment your Honor
From The New Zealand Herald :
Airline's approach to safety deplorable, says coroner
30.12.2002
11.45am
Inadequate safety procedures and a lack of anti-icing equipment caused a fatal crash in the Tararua Ranges five years ago, says Wellington coroner Garry Evans says.
Timothy Thompson, 27, was killed when the twin-engine Beechcraft Baron aircraft he was flying from Palmerston North to Christchurch crashed 2km southeast of Paraparaumu on June 11, 1997.
The company that owned the plane, United Aviation, went into receivership in August 1997, with the Civil Aviation Authority permanently revoking its operating certificate the following month.
In his findings, Mr Evans said the court was satisfied the cause of the crash "was the act of United Aviation in causing or permitting him to fly an aircraft not equipped with anti-icing or de-icing equipment or with ice detection lights on a winter's night freight flight".
The safety culture at United Aviation "left very much to be desired" and there was no way to ensure that Mr Thompson understood or complied with the company's operating procedures.
"United Aviation failed to ensure that Mr Thompson had... sufficient knowledge of the dangers associated with in-flight icing conditions to plan to avoid those hazards," Mr Evans said.
"Mr Thompson had carried out only one return trip from Palmerston North to Christchurch during winter months... the aircraft being flown by him was not approved for flight in forecast or known icing conditions."
Mr Thompson could not be criticised for failing to recognise the dangers of the icing conditions.
Mr Evans said it was possible that carbon monoxide poisoning caused by a faulty heater in the plane had also contributed to the crash. The gas could have impaired Mr Thompson's performance and caused mental confusion.
"The failures on the part of United Aviation.... were serious, fundamental in nature and are to be deplored," Mr Evans said.
"Mr Thompson's death was preventable."
[B]
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Shipreck
I agree with you up til the point that the pilot climbs in the cockpit and takes off….
The company management has a responsibility to ensure the pilot is competent in the job they have assigned him and responsible for the aircraft being serviceable. But in the end the pilot gets in the aircraft and takes off.
One of the biggest problems with most of today’s young pilots flying GA is they don’t know how to say No to the boss.
Or they are to sacred to say No…… "If I say no I get the sack and they will spread the word that I’m no good" etc etc……
It is simple why would you won’t to work for an operator who constantly puts your life at risk
Maybe you are one of those pilots that keeps a dairy with all the illegal things your boss makes you do so when you move on you can put him in…… Possible get more money out of him, maybe a bit of revenge.
Instead of having a industry of GA pilots trying to stab each other in the back for another twin hour and just maybe if we all stuck together and occasionally said No to the boss, then the operator would be forced to lift his game………..
I agree with you up til the point that the pilot climbs in the cockpit and takes off….
The company management has a responsibility to ensure the pilot is competent in the job they have assigned him and responsible for the aircraft being serviceable. But in the end the pilot gets in the aircraft and takes off.
One of the biggest problems with most of today’s young pilots flying GA is they don’t know how to say No to the boss.
Or they are to sacred to say No…… "If I say no I get the sack and they will spread the word that I’m no good" etc etc……
It is simple why would you won’t to work for an operator who constantly puts your life at risk
Maybe you are one of those pilots that keeps a dairy with all the illegal things your boss makes you do so when you move on you can put him in…… Possible get more money out of him, maybe a bit of revenge.
Instead of having a industry of GA pilots trying to stab each other in the back for another twin hour and just maybe if we all stuck together and occasionally said No to the boss, then the operator would be forced to lift his game………..
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Wagit
I think it is because I have had great bosses and worked for really safety conscious operators that I realise now how lucky I and my co-workers have been. (3 companies so far)
We are all professional pilots and well aware of our capabilities and the legal requirements of conducting flights. (some times over confident)
On more than one occassion the op's manager or Chief Pilot in the companies I have worked, have said NO to us the Pilots, which at the time really piissed us off becuase we took it personally and a slight on our abillities, not to mention the log book hours being missed out on.
More than once my boss has told me NO because although it is perfectly legal, he has a responsibility for providing safe working conditions and ensuring that the reputation of the company is not compromised. He would say but what if ?? I would say what if may never happen, He would say thats what we train for all the time, what if an engine fails on take off? what if the electircs fail? What if !!!
We at my current job are all full time pilots on a good wicket and we are not allowed to have a 2nd job, for duty time & fatigue management reasons.
What better way to improve safety management than by holding the management responsible for the safety of the company operations.
I am not talking about a Pilot who is well resourced, flying a good machine, who is current and well rested and resourced... who then gets it wrong and crashes. What more can an operator/management do?
I am talking about the shonky operator who approves a flight that is over weight, the pilot is not qualified, the plane is not airworthy, the pilot is fatigued from excess duty or maybe a heavy night last night etc etc.
THE FIRST LINE OF DEFENCE AGAINST AIR CRASHES IS ON THE GROUND PRE-FLIGHT...
Any Chief Pilot who knowingly permits a flight to be conducted that contravenes the Act or the Regulations should be prosecuted.
Now the onus is off the Pilot and on to the management.... The shonky operator now has 2 choices GET OUT of aviation or GET SAFE otherwise he/she/they will be the ones prosecuted.
The word KNOWINGLY makes all the difference. People will always make mistakes that become accidents. People who KNOWINGLY permit circumstances to exist are gamblers with others lives with nothing to lose. Put 20 years jail on the losing side of the bet and I am sure the shonky operator will think twice before taking a gamble.
THE MENTALITY OF THE OPERATORS - MANAGEMENT MUST CHANGE. WHEN IT DOES THEY WILL HAVE TO FACTOR IN THE ADDED COST OF SAFETY. THE PUBLIC WILL HAVE TO PAY AND THE SERVICE THEY GET WILL BE FAR SUPERIOR.
And this is where my comments about the Police crash are based, the management failed to say NO to the Pilot and or anyone else. Instead they said YES KNOWING that the Pilot was not competent, well trained, IFR/NVFR rated, well rested and resourced.
Maybe because all the victims were Police, that makes it different.
Enough said...
I think it is because I have had great bosses and worked for really safety conscious operators that I realise now how lucky I and my co-workers have been. (3 companies so far)
We are all professional pilots and well aware of our capabilities and the legal requirements of conducting flights. (some times over confident)
On more than one occassion the op's manager or Chief Pilot in the companies I have worked, have said NO to us the Pilots, which at the time really piissed us off becuase we took it personally and a slight on our abillities, not to mention the log book hours being missed out on.
More than once my boss has told me NO because although it is perfectly legal, he has a responsibility for providing safe working conditions and ensuring that the reputation of the company is not compromised. He would say but what if ?? I would say what if may never happen, He would say thats what we train for all the time, what if an engine fails on take off? what if the electircs fail? What if !!!
We at my current job are all full time pilots on a good wicket and we are not allowed to have a 2nd job, for duty time & fatigue management reasons.
What better way to improve safety management than by holding the management responsible for the safety of the company operations.
I am not talking about a Pilot who is well resourced, flying a good machine, who is current and well rested and resourced... who then gets it wrong and crashes. What more can an operator/management do?
I am talking about the shonky operator who approves a flight that is over weight, the pilot is not qualified, the plane is not airworthy, the pilot is fatigued from excess duty or maybe a heavy night last night etc etc.
THE FIRST LINE OF DEFENCE AGAINST AIR CRASHES IS ON THE GROUND PRE-FLIGHT...
Any Chief Pilot who knowingly permits a flight to be conducted that contravenes the Act or the Regulations should be prosecuted.
Now the onus is off the Pilot and on to the management.... The shonky operator now has 2 choices GET OUT of aviation or GET SAFE otherwise he/she/they will be the ones prosecuted.
The word KNOWINGLY makes all the difference. People will always make mistakes that become accidents. People who KNOWINGLY permit circumstances to exist are gamblers with others lives with nothing to lose. Put 20 years jail on the losing side of the bet and I am sure the shonky operator will think twice before taking a gamble.
THE MENTALITY OF THE OPERATORS - MANAGEMENT MUST CHANGE. WHEN IT DOES THEY WILL HAVE TO FACTOR IN THE ADDED COST OF SAFETY. THE PUBLIC WILL HAVE TO PAY AND THE SERVICE THEY GET WILL BE FAR SUPERIOR.
And this is where my comments about the Police crash are based, the management failed to say NO to the Pilot and or anyone else. Instead they said YES KNOWING that the Pilot was not competent, well trained, IFR/NVFR rated, well rested and resourced.
Maybe because all the victims were Police, that makes it different.
Enough said...
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Shipreck
States
This inquiry certainly indicates that management has many shortfalls, but surely the guy flying had some attributable blame to the accident.
The guy, (with not insignificant experience mind you, 2423 hrs total with 111hrs on type) had successfully got overhead Newman after a 2hr 20min NVFR flight, without incident before it all went wrong. And in a nutshell what went wrong was something as simple and dumb as gross fuel mismanagement.
He arrived overhead with an estimated 165 L of useable fuel, unfortunately in the wrong tanks (ATSB Report) and suffered fuel starvation. From that point on he and his passengers didn’t have much going for them and even the best of us would have had a hard time I would think.
Now take out the other issues (important and serious as they may be) how is the fact of fuel mismanagement not the blame of the pilot.
Its one thing to try and blame management for everything but as PIC you must accept some responsibility for your actions and occupation.
Hopefully we don't end up with a breed of pilots all saying
'NOT MY FAULT, HE CAUSED IT!'
States
The pilot of the WA Police crash should not be blamed either, Management put him there.
The guy, (with not insignificant experience mind you, 2423 hrs total with 111hrs on type) had successfully got overhead Newman after a 2hr 20min NVFR flight, without incident before it all went wrong. And in a nutshell what went wrong was something as simple and dumb as gross fuel mismanagement.
He arrived overhead with an estimated 165 L of useable fuel, unfortunately in the wrong tanks (ATSB Report) and suffered fuel starvation. From that point on he and his passengers didn’t have much going for them and even the best of us would have had a hard time I would think.
Now take out the other issues (important and serious as they may be) how is the fact of fuel mismanagement not the blame of the pilot.
Its one thing to try and blame management for everything but as PIC you must accept some responsibility for your actions and occupation.
Hopefully we don't end up with a breed of pilots all saying
'NOT MY FAULT, HE CAUSED IT!'
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Grnd Power
I hear what you are saying and understand your angle. I don't agree with it and neither does the Coroner. Hence the title of this thread.
Quiet simply the management knew he was not NVRF rated and out in the sandy desert area I would assert that at night without a moon it is more like IFR conditions, add some Cb's etc.
The Chief Pilot, Op's Manager, Boss of the Air Support should have said, "No Way you are not qualified". They didn't and 4 people died simple as that........
The fact that he stuffed up the fuel management could be attributed to the fact that he was operating well outside his legal entitlement and experience capabilities. To have made it that far without the training is probably attributed to dtermination,ignorance and or pure luck.
Management took a gamble, threw the dice and lost. I am willing however to bet that if saying yes in this instance would have involved the risk of a jail sentence, the Pilot would not have left the ground... Crash avoided.
I am not talking here about a mistake that the Pilot made which caused the loss of the aircraft.... that is an accident.
What I am talking about is that the Police management KNOWINGLY transferred a Pilot who was not qualified to operate in NVFR of IFR conditions to an area where it is an absolute necessity, was of sub-standard according to the now Civillian Police Chech & Training Capt who prior to the crash refused to issue him a multi-engine endorsement on the grounds of incompetence. The Management KNOWING all of this then authorised the fatefull flight and then when it crashed jumped back and blamed the Pilot, who can't defend himself.
If the Police are not going to obey the rules, then what chance is there for the rest of the industry.
SAFETY LIES WITH MANAGEMENT SETTING A STANDARD AND THE REST OF US UPHOLDING THAT STANDARD. Once this is acheived no Pilot need worry about saying NO because the Management have told us to uphold their own standards.
I say again, Maybe because all the victims were Police, that makes it different. No further debate, pay the victims families compensation and push it under the carpet.
Enough enough said.
I hear what you are saying and understand your angle. I don't agree with it and neither does the Coroner. Hence the title of this thread.
Quiet simply the management knew he was not NVRF rated and out in the sandy desert area I would assert that at night without a moon it is more like IFR conditions, add some Cb's etc.
The Chief Pilot, Op's Manager, Boss of the Air Support should have said, "No Way you are not qualified". They didn't and 4 people died simple as that........
The fact that he stuffed up the fuel management could be attributed to the fact that he was operating well outside his legal entitlement and experience capabilities. To have made it that far without the training is probably attributed to dtermination,ignorance and or pure luck.
Management took a gamble, threw the dice and lost. I am willing however to bet that if saying yes in this instance would have involved the risk of a jail sentence, the Pilot would not have left the ground... Crash avoided.
I am not talking here about a mistake that the Pilot made which caused the loss of the aircraft.... that is an accident.
What I am talking about is that the Police management KNOWINGLY transferred a Pilot who was not qualified to operate in NVFR of IFR conditions to an area where it is an absolute necessity, was of sub-standard according to the now Civillian Police Chech & Training Capt who prior to the crash refused to issue him a multi-engine endorsement on the grounds of incompetence. The Management KNOWING all of this then authorised the fatefull flight and then when it crashed jumped back and blamed the Pilot, who can't defend himself.
If the Police are not going to obey the rules, then what chance is there for the rest of the industry.
SAFETY LIES WITH MANAGEMENT SETTING A STANDARD AND THE REST OF US UPHOLDING THAT STANDARD. Once this is acheived no Pilot need worry about saying NO because the Management have told us to uphold their own standards.
I say again, Maybe because all the victims were Police, that makes it different. No further debate, pay the victims families compensation and push it under the carpet.
Enough enough said.