Seaplane flipped Jumpinpin
It appears that at around the 17 second mark of the video posted above, that the float(s) start to operate independently to the aircraft. At that point the aircraft has become laterally unstable and far less controllable.
Last edited by Squawk7700; 27th Jan 2023 at 22:43.
Got a feeling you've hit the nail on the head, I haven't seen a lot of floatplane take-offs but there seems to be a lot more movement of the floats during the roll than I would expect and indeed at that 17-second mark the left float, in particular, seems to be moving a bit more. Certainly seems to be struggling after getting itself on the step and even after it looks to be skipping a lot, from what I understand they're meant to be pretty sturdy buggers but could that skipping have caused it to detach at least partially? Haven't seen anyone mention if it's normal for a no-flap takeoff in a floatplane but from my understanding, it isn't.
Haven't seen anyone mention if it's normal for a no-flap takeoff in a floatplane but from my understanding, it isn't.
From a glider pilot perspective* it looks as though at some point in the proceedings it becomes increasingly apparent that its going to be a near thing to clear the terrain ahead, so there's a gradual deviation to the right. That was working, but just on a lift off (drag off) there is a slight left wing drop which is countered by increasing opposite right aileron going to full deflection. Intuitive perhaps, but wrong in this unusual sequence of events. At low speeds at or near near the stall this is a set up for an incipient spin which is exactly what happened. Ailerons neutral and a generous but short boot of right rudder at the point where wing drop was sensed may have salvaged the day .... I am still not sure whether the aircraft was really ready to fly at that point however.
* Dropping a wing on ground run in gliding is a known (if occasional) occurrence. Accordingly we train for it, and it can be salvaged in almost all instances - not by corrective aileron (the wing is probably still not at flying speed) but by a generous and brief application of opposite rudder. You need to be on the ball not to over correct, but that's what flying is all about - keeping ahead of the aircraft. It's a situation rarely encountered in powered aviation, so the concept is probably little known there - if at all.
* Dropping a wing on ground run in gliding is a known (if occasional) occurrence. Accordingly we train for it, and it can be salvaged in almost all instances - not by corrective aileron (the wing is probably still not at flying speed) but by a generous and brief application of opposite rudder. You need to be on the ball not to over correct, but that's what flying is all about - keeping ahead of the aircraft. It's a situation rarely encountered in powered aviation, so the concept is probably little known there - if at all.
Last edited by FullOppositeRudder; 28th Jan 2023 at 03:41. Reason: Reviewed for (hopefully) clarification on a couple of points
Originally Posted by First Principal
There's no question that the jetski appears to enter a sharp turn almost at the same time the a/c becomes airborne. Taking into account reaction times etc I agree the driver could have been attempting to avoid the a/c around the same time the a/c driver pulled up prematurely and rather abruptly in order to miss the jetski that was on a potential collision course. Difficult to fully determine the angles etc from that camera view, but I don't believe it can be discounted at this point.
Certainly Captain. As all radar controllers will have observed the relative bearing was not changing so a meeting was inevitable unless one of them changed course.
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The looming terra firma and the flora growing on it look to me to be a bigger risk to the aircraft.
I am of course only going on the video. But the left hand photo in post #2 places the capsized aircraft quite close to the shore, albeit after drifting for a while.
I am of course only going on the video. But the left hand photo in post #2 places the capsized aircraft quite close to the shore, albeit after drifting for a while.
I am with 43”, Squawk & Ixixly: I also had feeling the floats started to move independently of the fuselage. Would put the pilot in a difficult position about what to do next if they realised that was happening. The struts were certainly getting a workout earlier in the takeoff run.
Here is link to one such interview on Channel 7 News (hope link works):
https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&r...Ocl-i7rRO_Ivcg
Seaplane was VH-DAB, a Rans S-7S Courier according to AustAirData which has photo of it in better times.
https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&r...Ocl-i7rRO_Ivcg
Seaplane was VH-DAB, a Rans S-7S Courier according to AustAirData which has photo of it in better times.
Here is link to one such interview on Channel 7 News (hope link works):
https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&r...Ocl-i7rRO_Ivcg
Seaplane was VH-DAB, a Rans S-7S Courier according to AustAirData which has photo of it in better times.
https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&r...Ocl-i7rRO_Ivcg
Seaplane was VH-DAB, a Rans S-7S Courier according to AustAirData which has photo of it in better times.
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With floats throttle to idle can make it nose over as the airflow over the elevator is lost, to stop it flipping over from the floats digging in nose first you have to apply back pressure, which normally lets the back of the floats dig in and slow down. It's possible he did cut throttle kicked off a wave and became airborne unexpectedly with no power and just slumped back to the left and flipped anyway. Just a theory. From what I've seen of those S-7S with the 100Hp they seem to fly away quite well with the engine running. My take is that everything looked normal, it was on the step at close to flying speed early in the clip until just passed the pylon, then a porpoising wave action where it seemed to lose speed and maybe a float come loose, sudden veer right, cut throttle, pull back, becomes airborne off a wave and the rest is obvious.
At 1:30 into this news item from a few days ago they include a statement from an ATSB spokesperson:
"...pilot... detected a loud bang and observed damage to the right float which was partially detached. The pilot reduced power, and the left wing made contact with the water..."
It goes on to indicate ATSB will not be investigating the incident further.
"...pilot... detected a loud bang and observed damage to the right float which was partially detached. The pilot reduced power, and the left wing made contact with the water..."
It goes on to indicate ATSB will not be investigating the incident further.
At 1:30 into this news item from a few days ago they include a statement from an ATSB spokesperson:
Brisbane car dealer at the controls of seaplane that crashed near South Stradbroke Island | 7NEWS - YouTube
"...pilot... detected a loud bang and observed damage to the right float which was partially detached. The pilot reduced power, and the left wing made contact with the water..."
It goes on to indicate ATSB will not be investigating the incident further.
Brisbane car dealer at the controls of seaplane that crashed near South Stradbroke Island | 7NEWS - YouTube
"...pilot... detected a loud bang and observed damage to the right float which was partially detached. The pilot reduced power, and the left wing made contact with the water..."
It goes on to indicate ATSB will not be investigating the incident further.
Last edited by Squawk7700; 31st Jan 2023 at 01:23.
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The water conditions were tricky to start with, let alone continuing with a float doing it's own thing. You also have to think how broken the float is, if it hangs at some weird angle in flight then you will be uncontrollable most likely. Even if you did get airborne you are going to flip on landing anyway, I can't think of any way you will prevent that short of jettisoning both floats and belly landing somehow. Even if you can land on one float as you slow you will settle on the other quickly, there's no rudder at slow speed as the water rudders are retracted, and would do bugger all to counter strong yaw anyway. The best thing to do is cut throttle and try to stop, in reality the flip was probably a good outcome as everyone survived with minor injuries. Float planes are hard to insure for good reason, but I can say some of the best fun you can have with wings.... Luckily water is relatively soft at slow speed, so you can walk (swim) away from most mishaps on take-off or landing. The only downside is the restoration cost, which is why insurance looks the other way.
