Missing light aircraft in the NT
Originally Posted by lucille
45 years ago, I was flying 210s in the NT and FNQ.
FFS, can GA not do better than fly these dinosaurs commercially today? In 1975, no one operated a 1930s era aircraft, yet today flogging around in a 40-50 year old aircraft is considered normal. Weird.
Even in around 1975(?) there was a 210 whose wings folded back in turbulence in the Camooweal circuit area. So, still nothing learned.
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Note to young pilots : leave Australia ASAP. New aircraft and proper maintenance. A winning combo you won’t find here.
FFS, can GA not do better than fly these dinosaurs commercially today? In 1975, no one operated a 1930s era aircraft, yet today flogging around in a 40-50 year old aircraft is considered normal. Weird.
Even in around 1975(?) there was a 210 whose wings folded back in turbulence in the Camooweal circuit area. So, still nothing learned.
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Note to young pilots : leave Australia ASAP. New aircraft and proper maintenance. A winning combo you won’t find here.
Originally Posted by megan
Question is lucille, what modern aircraft would you recommend, Cessna are still building the 206 I guess. There was a reason the 210 gained favour, rather than a Cherokee Six or Beech 36.
Many operators use B58 Barons, so operating a Bonanza would reduce operational spares, fleet familiarity & standardization, and have better avionics to assist in flying in marginal conditions [maybe even weather radar in the new generation A36s?]
Any operators doing this anyway?
KP
Originally Posted by Kulwin Park
Good point. Why aren't operators up north using new A36 Bonanzas, instead of 210's?
Many operators use B58 Barons, so operating a Bonanza would reduce operational spares, fleet familiarity & standardization, and have better avionics to assist in flying in marginal conditions [maybe even weather radar in the new generation A36s?]
Any operators doing this anyway?
KP
Many operators use B58 Barons, so operating a Bonanza would reduce operational spares, fleet familiarity & standardization, and have better avionics to assist in flying in marginal conditions [maybe even weather radar in the new generation A36s?]
Any operators doing this anyway?
KP
B58's v C310 & the operators up that way mostly took the B58 - for a reason. You can get a new B58 but most don't (they have a spar life limit).
I recall a fully IFR C206 being put on the escarpment near Jabiru as the pilot was only VFR. No radar or avionics will save the day in marginal conditions unless you can use them correctly.
Very sad outcome. Many of us have been in the young fellas spot flying around remote areas alone in our 20’s.
If it turns out to be an in-flight breakup I hope the ATSB can provide some valuable insight into how the pilot was trained. Was/is turbulence penetration speed taught during training? How is moderate or severe turbulence demonstrated to young pilots?
Annoyingly the private aircraft accident in Sydney has received more media coverage than this accident. 210s fly 1,000s of people all around Australia every year.
If it turns out to be an in-flight breakup I hope the ATSB can provide some valuable insight into how the pilot was trained. Was/is turbulence penetration speed taught during training? How is moderate or severe turbulence demonstrated to young pilots?
Annoyingly the private aircraft accident in Sydney has received more media coverage than this accident. 210s fly 1,000s of people all around Australia every year.
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Originally Posted by aussieflyboy
Very sad outcome. Many of us have been in the young fellas spot flying around remote areas alone in our 20’s.
If it turns out to be an in-flight breakup I hope the ATSB can provide some valuable insight into how the pilot was trained. Was/is turbulence penetration speed taught during training? How is moderate or severe turbulence demonstrated to young pilots?
Annoyingly the private aircraft accident in Sydney has received more media coverage than this accident. 210s fly 1,000s of people all around Australia every year.
If it turns out to be an in-flight breakup I hope the ATSB can provide some valuable insight into how the pilot was trained. Was/is turbulence penetration speed taught during training? How is moderate or severe turbulence demonstrated to young pilots?
Annoyingly the private aircraft accident in Sydney has received more media coverage than this accident. 210s fly 1,000s of people all around Australia every year.
Since this was a passenger transport operation I'm also surprised the media hasn't covered it more.
There is a continuation of the goss on the Appin thread if anyone is interested in that
Moderator
slow down below Va
Please do keep in mind that Va is not, necessarily, the simplistic animal that most pilots are taught to believe it is. For most light aircraft, it may relate to some level of stall protection against excessive normal load factor in turbulence but that is not a guarantee by any means - you really need to know the certification basis for the particular Type to find out what the story might be.
As the use of Vo gains more penetration into the Industry, this problem will reduce .... but that is going to take some considerable time.
Please do keep in mind that Va is not, necessarily, the simplistic animal that most pilots are taught to believe it is. For most light aircraft, it may relate to some level of stall protection against excessive normal load factor in turbulence but that is not a guarantee by any means - you really need to know the certification basis for the particular Type to find out what the story might be.
As the use of Vo gains more penetration into the Industry, this problem will reduce .... but that is going to take some considerable time.
Originally Posted by Bend alot
Same reason most operators did not use the old A36s against a C210. (most new plane models carry less than old due cert requirements)
B58's v C310 & the operators up that way mostly took the B58 - for a reason. You can get a new B58 but most don't (they have a spar life limit).
I recall a fully IFR C206 being put on the escarpment near Jabiru as the pilot was only VFR. No radar or avionics will save the day in marginal conditions unless you can use them correctly.
B58's v C310 & the operators up that way mostly took the B58 - for a reason. You can get a new B58 but most don't (they have a spar life limit).
I recall a fully IFR C206 being put on the escarpment near Jabiru as the pilot was only VFR. No radar or avionics will save the day in marginal conditions unless you can use them correctly.
What are the chances of grounding them? It feels like a potential outcome as you can’t just keep blaming 20 year old pilots and allegedly supposed pushy operators when the wings fall off..
I’m trying to think of other types that may have had their CofA pulled in this country for similar reasons.
I’m trying to think of other types that may have had their CofA pulled in this country for similar reasons.
In theory you could update the old airframes to pretty much new standard with a big spend on avionics. You can't fix the spar carry through issues though, that's just fatigue cracking based on how much and how many times it flexes a flight. A 5 year old 210 could do low level survey flat out and build up the required stress to see cracking vs a 40 year old similar that has been flown gently in smooth air which shows no evidence. Which is why the ATSB recommendations have merit.
Main thing is though, GA world wide, the smaller operators exist on shoestrings and don't want to pay for anything more than they have to. Cheap old plane does similar job to new expensive plane, whats the incentive to upgrade? And there is also merit to saying they will still crash due to the nature of GA operations, new or old.
In car fleets they are renewed regularly with very low KMs, mainly as there is huge tax advantages that most govs implement to prop up car sales. Maybe this should have been brought into GA many years ago. From memory the major tax benefits that were around for ownership of GA aircraft was removed 20-25 years ago, which was a major reason larger twins dwindled from flying club lineups.
Main thing is though, GA world wide, the smaller operators exist on shoestrings and don't want to pay for anything more than they have to. Cheap old plane does similar job to new expensive plane, whats the incentive to upgrade? And there is also merit to saying they will still crash due to the nature of GA operations, new or old.
In car fleets they are renewed regularly with very low KMs, mainly as there is huge tax advantages that most govs implement to prop up car sales. Maybe this should have been brought into GA many years ago. From memory the major tax benefits that were around for ownership of GA aircraft was removed 20-25 years ago, which was a major reason larger twins dwindled from flying club lineups.
slow down below Va
Please do keep in mind that Va is not, necessarily, the simplistic animal that most pilots are taught to believe it is. For most light aircraft, it may relate to some level of stall protection against excessive normal load factor in turbulence but that is not a guarantee by any means - you really need to know the certification basis for the particular Type to find out what the story might be.
As the use of Vo gains more penetration into the Industry, this problem will reduce .... but that is going to take some considerable time.
Please do keep in mind that Va is not, necessarily, the simplistic animal that most pilots are taught to believe it is. For most light aircraft, it may relate to some level of stall protection against excessive normal load factor in turbulence but that is not a guarantee by any means - you really need to know the certification basis for the particular Type to find out what the story might be.
As the use of Vo gains more penetration into the Industry, this problem will reduce .... but that is going to take some considerable time.
The V speeds may not be designed to even protect the airframe over it's expected life, just a well maintained airframe in the defined circumstances. Once fatigue cracking has developed and not repaired the structural V speeds mean very little as the structure is now flawed, so instead of maintaining something like Va where its a healthy margin above stall you might want to be even slower and take lower marging on the stall to protect against structural failure due to higher speed stresses. But then again, if you knew the structure was compromised you would not be flying it....
Something to remember is the myth of Va being the speed you can use ANY "full control movement". Yes in one direction, but repeated full travel movement of multiple or even one surface may not remain within safe limits. So flying through a thunderstorm you probably want to be at the slowest possible speed with a smaller margin for stall.
Last edited by 43Inches; 28th Dec 2022 at 05:40.
Originally Posted by Squawk7700
What are the chances of grounding them? It feels like a potential outcome as you can’t just keep blaming 20 year old pilots and allegedly supposed pushy operators when the wings fall off..
I’m trying to think of other types that may have had their CofA pulled in this country for similar reasons.
I’m trying to think of other types that may have had their CofA pulled in this country for similar reasons.
If my memory serves me correctly, a Percival Proctor broke up, and the subsequent grounding of casein-glued aircraft meant the end for a couple of Avro Ansons being operated by Jimmy Woods. For years they had been trying to ground Jimmy, but having failed that, grounding his aircraft finally did the job. To what extent the Anson had casein glue I don't know - maybe none. maybe some?
Then the loss of the MMA Vickers Viscount near Port Hedland saw that type grounded in Australia, though not overseas. I flew some command hours in the Viscount in Europe, but by then the fleet had been re-worked considerably, to the extent that it was actually a very good aircraft for its time.
Back to the C210, as Squawk 7700 suggests, you don't know how hard the airframe has been flogged. regardless of its age. It only takes one severe over stress event to set it up to kill someone some time down the track. It's too soon to say that this was the case here, but if initial investigation indicates the possibility, it is a very good reason to ground the fleet pending some very serious inspections and possible modification - if feasible. Otherwise, consignment to the recycle bin.
Originally Posted by Squawk7700
What are the chances of grounding them? It feels like a potential outcome as you can’t just keep blaming 20 year old pilots and allegedly supposed pushy operators when the wings fall off..
I’m trying to think of other types that may have had their CofA pulled in this country for similar reasons.
I’m trying to think of other types that may have had their CofA pulled in this country for similar reasons.
Nothing to do with the aircraft design - a CASA Knee Jerk again.
Think all agree a GA8 is a "New Aircraft".
Originally Posted by Bend alot
Like CASA with the GA8?
Nothing to do with the aircraft design - a CASA Knee Jerk again.
Think all agree a GA8 is a "New Aircraft".
Nothing to do with the aircraft design - a CASA Knee Jerk again.
Think all agree a GA8 is a "New Aircraft".
Lots of fingerprinting at a spar. Yes, C210s are getting on (and I shudder to hear some of the bucket-of-bolts 210s that I flew last century still on the airwaves) but did it just break up in normal conditions? Or was the aircraft in a position that the airframe was stressed beyond its design limits? The weather wasn't great up there Christmas Eve. What training did the poor pilot have? No weather radar of course. What commercial pressures (assuming it was an Air Transport operator) was the pilot under to fly a VFR aircraft that day over that route?
Hopefully the GPS will reveal some valid data and whatever the outcome of the investigation, lessons are learned.
Hopefully the GPS will reveal some valid data and whatever the outcome of the investigation, lessons are learned.
Should we be operating 45 year old aircraft ?
The reality is that if the thing has a C of A, an MR, and a AD and SB-driven maintenance system, then .... only CASA and the insurance company can stop us !
The reality is that if the thing has a C of A, an MR, and a AD and SB-driven maintenance system, then .... only CASA and the insurance company can stop us !
