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Mount Disappointment helicopter crash 31/3/2022

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Mount Disappointment helicopter crash 31/3/2022

Old 27th Apr 2022, 22:34
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JTI was the one in question The lost boys | Flight Safety Australia adds a bit more to the other report. Fortunately, most of us manage, usually by good luck, to get enough experience to avoid these situations ...
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Old 27th Apr 2022, 22:55
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Not that I recall but it was quite a few years ago, now, so the brain cells may be a tad remiss ?
Didn't a C206 go looking for them? Then had an engine failure.
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Old 28th Apr 2022, 03:17
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Originally Posted by Squawk7700
There is little talk of cloud. The cameras at the Kilmore gap will tell a significant story if they store historical images. The cloud at Romsey around 40kms to the west was as good as on the ground and that is at 1,000ft. Mt Disappointment elevation is 2,640ft. The windsock at Romsey appears to be showing a NW breeze.
Is using the Kilmore Gap AWS phone number common these days, or has it been 'lost' to the wonders of the Internet? 03 5783 2296 was almost a mandatory check call when planning north in all but the best weather days.

Some years back with the advent of the iPad and the 'Children of the Magenta Line' I had an enlightening experience with a pilot I was checking: when I took away his iPad he was totally and utterly lost, not even being able to identify Mansfield which was <5nm from us at the time. He was locked on to the Magenta Line and didn't have any sort of paper chart nor map to back up his flight.

Sign of the times

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Old 28th Apr 2022, 09:09
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Originally Posted by tossbag
Didn't a C206 go looking for them? Then had an engine failure.
That was a C210, VH-PLD and it was searching for a C152 VH-BUO. Similar area, different accidents.
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Old 28th Apr 2022, 10:55
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when I took away his iPad he was totally and utterly lost

That's sad enough to be tragic. Much the same with the electronic calculator crowd who couldn't run a mental sum if their lives depended on it. I can only hope that more instructors (and examiners) do the same sort of thing as you did. It wouldn't take long for the message to get around the Industry.

Another one which saddens me is the steam driven whizz wheel. OK, pilots can use the electronic version. However, the examiner still requires a display of some sort of competence to pass the various pilot exams. Being involved with theory training, these days, I have seen so many who have utterly no idea of why they are doing what they thought they had learnt (parrot fashion) correctly. I even had one supposedly university level class in recent times where several of them complained vigorously and bitterly when I presented some basic math background as to why you did this and that with the wheel.

One can only wonder where it might end ?
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Old 28th Apr 2022, 13:19
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That was a C210, VH-PLD and it was searching for a C152 VH-BUO. Similar area, different accidents.


Understood, thought it was the Trinidad accident.
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Old 28th Apr 2022, 23:34
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Originally Posted by john_tullamarine
when I took away his iPad he was totally and utterly lost

That's sad enough to be tragic. Much the same with the electronic calculator crowd who couldn't run a mental sum if their lives depended on it. I can only hope that more instructors (and examiners) do the same sort of thing as you did. It wouldn't take long for the message to get around the Industry.

Another one which saddens me is the steam driven whizz wheel. OK, pilots can use the electronic version. However, the examiner still requires a display of some sort of competence to pass the various pilot exams. Being involved with theory training, these days, I have seen so many who have utterly no idea of why they are doing what they thought they had learnt (parrot fashion) correctly. I even had one supposedly university level class in recent times where several of them complained vigorously and bitterly when I presented some basic math background as to why you did this and that with the wheel.

One can only wonder where it might end ?
One of the big problems is that piloting and university have no correlation. The practical maths required for piloting an aircraft is sub year 10 level, not advanced calculus or differential equations. I've found the average university student struggles with simple maths in the cranium without some form of calculator, meaning quick decisions such as a sudden shortening of track means a delayed reaction to how much simple VS is required for the new profile. Its all about quick decisions on averages not, accurate down to a decimal point. As for navigation, that is a long forgotten art, once a pilot passes their PPL/CPL they will probably never pick up a wiz wheel or paper chart again, meaning like year 6 level times tables its a rusting artifact in the rear lobes. If your aircraft doesn't have a moving map GPS glass cockpit, you will most likely be carrying an iPad that does. I'm thankful all my training was pre-GPS even IFR having to do all calculations reference position lines and times for descent planing. I still do the numbers in my head to verify the GPS is doing it's thing and look out the window and identify features as I go to keep me occupied, occasionally ATS will throw some track shortening at me that requires some huge maths problems like 3 or 5 times tables.
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Old 29th Apr 2022, 01:16
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I don't disagree with the general sentiment and I am glad that I did my PPL through to CPL pre Ipad and GPS. To be fair to the younger generation though I don't think they are even given the choice of learning techniques that doesn't involve technology. Even the basic trainers have glass cockpits. I always had a quiet chuckle to myself when the bloke in the LHS pulled out a calculator to work out ToD. Reference weight is 60t add 1nm for every tonne above and then add blah blah blah for wind. Then ATC would get you to slow to 250kts as soon as you commenced descent and there was no longer time to pull out the calculator. I dont see it done anymore as they just rely on the vdev scale.
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Old 29th Apr 2022, 01:31
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Don't want to drift too far, but I often ponder how some people would survive if GNSS didn't work for a day or the internet didn't work for a day. Just a day.

When one considers some of the circumstances that lead people to ring 000, I suspect a lot of people would be in the foetal position.

A week? Anarchy.

/drift off
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Old 29th Apr 2022, 01:39
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Don't want to drift too far, but I often ponder how some people would survive if GNSS didn't work for a day or the internet didn't work for a day. Just a day.
I've pondered this on a serious level, as part of my 'what ifs' list. What if I'm in IMC and the GNSS system shuts down, what alternates with ground based aids will I have, what separation standards would be applied with ADSB being down. Where would I go if we are down to minimas and I'm facing circling in IMC off an NDB with no distance or situational awareness from GPS based maps and equipment at night. How many feel comfortable that they have a plan for that and are current enough to safely do it. It's a very unlikely scenario but it is possible.
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Old 29th Apr 2022, 01:43
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Originally Posted by Lead Balloon
Don't want to drift too far, but I often ponder how some people would survive if GNSS didn't work for a day or the internet didn't work for a day. Just a day.

When one considers some of the circumstances that lead people to ring 000, I suspect a lot of people would be in the foetal position.

A week? Anarchy.

/drift off
There'd be people wandering the streets of our cities without a clue where they are.
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Old 29th Apr 2022, 06:39
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One of the big problems is that piloting and university have no correlation.

Your post rather sums up my thoughts.The kids to whom I referred were quintessential children of the magenta line folk ...
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Old 29th Apr 2022, 07:07
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It's not just following the magenta line that's the issue, it's the lack of having to even study a route in any detail prior to launching that bites people in the arse, combined with knowing that you don't have to actually navigate by time / distance / heading methods and get regular pinpoints to check your planning (or read the terrain and track crawl at lower levels).

I ferried a machine from Brisbane to Cairns a few years back and had the route planned on WACs all the way, with reference to ERC for airspace. The bloke who came with me had his iPad with OzRunways, happy to just follow the line, and while I was impressed with the capabilities of the electronic gear, simply being able to drag out the map and identify features enroute was so much better for awareness, I found.

The bottom line, I suppose, is that flying schools need to be teaching pilots to take advantage of electronics but have the common dog to be able to build and keep a good mental picture as well, and be able to quickly do an inflight replan taking into account distance, time, fuel, terrain, airspace and last light when the iPad stops working. Nobody should be able to get any licence bar perhaps an RPL unless they can do that.
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Old 29th Apr 2022, 08:01
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Wouldn't it be 'character building' if every flight review had to be carried out on the basis of a demonstrated paper/pencil/prayer wheel manual flight planning process, followed by a 'GPS-off' nav in accordance with the plan, interrupted by a diversion and practise forced landing?
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Old 29th Apr 2022, 09:32
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The bottom line, I suppose, is that flying schools need to be teaching pilots to take advantage of electronics but have

That's a pretty reasonable thought.

​​​​​​Wouldn't it be 'character building' if every flight review

Indeed, but probably a bit too much. However, the principle is good. Were a review to include an unannounced section where the examiner requires the candidate to do some steam driven work, and this was known to be a requirement, then it probably would follow that overall backup standards might improve significantly ?
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Old 29th Apr 2022, 09:45
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But it creates a paradox. How can a candidate be prepared to do "some" randomly-chosen surprise steam driven work, without having prepared to do "all" of that work? I'm talking about the surprise occurring in the middle of a flight review.

I think the concept is important to safety, but I don't know how it can practicably be implemented now that we've crossed the paperless Rubicon.
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Old 29th Apr 2022, 21:07
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Originally Posted by Lead Balloon
Don't want to drift too far, but I often ponder how some people would survive if GNSS didn't work for a day or the internet didn't work for a day. Just a day.

When one considers some of the circumstances that lead people to ring 000, I suspect a lot of people would be in the foetal position.

A week? Anarchy.

/drift off
Absolutely: and I will surmise that the Ukraine conflict may well lead to a GPS issue before this year is out. Better dig out those 'old' charts and street maps if you want to get where you're going!

Omega was the bee's knees when I was flying off the north west of WA, with 2nm accuracy. only 43 years ago. After Decca DANAC in the North Sea it was the future (at the time)
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Old 30th Apr 2022, 10:31
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Omega was the bee's knees when I was flying off the north west of WA, with 2nm accuracy.

AN had Omega on (at least) the 727LRs. Commonplace PER-SYD to have the system roll the aircraft out over BIK near as on track ... we were spoiled rotten back then.
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Old 30th Apr 2022, 13:06
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You mean the old “selective availability” being re-introduced? Surprised if it hasn’t happened already.
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Old 3rd May 2022, 04:15
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In the '80's Esso had their own Omega chain in Bass Strait to support offshore helo operations, aircraft system provided a continious position fix to an onshore operator for SAR purposes. Later used GPS when the system became available.
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