Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > PPRuNe Worldwide > The Pacific: General Aviation & Questions
Reload this Page >

Mid-air collision involving Piper PA-44-180 Seminole, VH-JQF, and Beech D95A Travel A

The Pacific: General Aviation & Questions The place for students, instructors and charter guys in Oz, NZ and the rest of Oceania.

Mid-air collision involving Piper PA-44-180 Seminole, VH-JQF, and Beech D95A Travel A

Old 5th Feb 2022, 08:04
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 186
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Mid-air collision involving Piper PA-44-180 Seminole, VH-JQF, and Beech D95A Travel A

On 19th February 2020 the above mid-air collision occurred. In two weeks it will be the second anniversary of the deaths of those four airmen.
While the TSI Act requires reports to be published as soon as practicable, ICAO Annex 13 to the Convention on International Civil Aviation "Aircraft Accident and Investigation Manual" has an additional stipulation:
6.6 Recommendation.ó The State conducting the investigation should release the Final Report in the shortest possible
time and, if possible, within twelve months of the date of the occurrence. If the report cannot be released within twelve months,
the State conducting the investigation should release an interim report on each anniversary of the occurrence, detailing the
progress of the investigation and any safety issues raised.
It is difficult to know why ATSB ignores Annex 13, or why they are taking so long to reach their conclusions, however.....
Since, there have been three other similar incidents at Mangalore and Ballina :
  • 28 Nov 2020 A0-2020-62 / Ballina between a Jetstar A320 and a Jabiru
  • 6 Jun 2021 A0-2021-023 / Mangalore, a PA 44 doing practise instrument approaches and a passing AW139 helicopter
  • 16 Sep 2021 A0-2021-038 / Ballina, Virgin 737, Jetstar A320 and a C-208
How long do we have to wait?
Mr Approach is offline  
Old 5th Feb 2022, 20:48
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 3,474
Received 16 Likes on 12 Posts
No doubt Covid will get a mention as a reason for the delay.
Squawk7700 is offline  
Old 5th Feb 2022, 23:04
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Australia/India
Posts: 4,683
Received 30 Likes on 21 Posts
It takes a long time to craft a report that explains why Air Services doesn’t provide the services you thought it was going to provide, why the mandated gizmos don’t deliver the benefits we were told they were going to deliver and why, therefore, it’s all the pilots’ fault.

There’s no such thing as a systemic problem any more and it’s ATSB’s job to keep coming to that conclusion. It’s neater that way.
Lead Balloon is offline  
Old 6th Feb 2022, 06:45
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: The Coal Face
Posts: 997
Received 5 Likes on 2 Posts
This report took 7 months. Mid-air collision from the 70s. Typed.

https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/...ts/AAR7905.pdf

Chronic Snoozer is offline  
Old 6th Feb 2022, 08:04
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Outback Australia
Posts: 379
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Lead Balloon, sadly, I agree with your assessment.

at the end of the day, we are going to get a watered down apology of a report which, if printed out, would not even be useful as decent bog roll - despite nationwide shortages.

as an aside, as the regulations are being rewritten to such an extent, will we see the requirement to be a fit and proper person be removed from the regs?

at the very least, will we see a definition of “fit and proper”?

No, I did not think so.
outnabout is offline  
Old 10th Feb 2022, 23:03
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
They have to wait until the Christmas Eve after they believe that everyone has forgotten about it before they can release a report.

That way, you can get away with blaming three non structural screws missing from the firewall as the cause of the crash.
D B Cooper is offline  
Old 11th Feb 2022, 13:46
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: QLD - where drivers are yet to realise that the left lane goes to their destination too.
Posts: 2,977
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes on 3 Posts
How long do we have to wait?
What are you expecting to get out of it? They've already implemented changes in an attempt to alleviate some of the "concerns". You think they'll take any notice of any ATSB recommendations? Those guys don't live in the real world.
Traffic_Is_Er_Was is offline  
Old 12th Feb 2022, 04:38
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 66
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Traffic_Is_Er_Was View Post
What are you expecting to get out of it? They've already implemented changes in an attempt to alleviate some of the "concerns". You think they'll take any notice of any ATSB recommendations? Those guys don't live in the real world.
TIEW, if you would indulge us plebs!

Who are “They’ve” ?

What are the ‘changes” ?

What were the “concerns” ?

Who are “they’ll” ?

Who are “those guys” ?

Some specifics please otherwise the readers on this thread will think you are making things up…

Sounds more like like BLA everyday . . .

Wasn’t CASA doing an AIRSPACE REVIEW?

Has anyone seen a copy?

Last edited by Gentle_flyer; 12th Feb 2022 at 05:00.
Gentle_flyer is offline  
Old 12th Feb 2022, 07:35
  #9 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 186
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
GF - I checked the OAR website for airspace reviews of Mangalore since the mid-air collision without success.
That is not to say that OAR has not done an airspace review, only that I could not find it on the CASA website.
Mr Approach is offline  
Old 12th Feb 2022, 11:02
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: You live where
Posts: 506
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Lead Balloon View Post
It takes a long time to craft a report that explains why Air Services doesnít provide the services you thought it was going to provide, why the mandated gizmos donít deliver the benefits we were told they were going to deliver and why, therefore, itís all the pilotsí fault.

Thereís no such thing as a systemic problem any more and itís ATSBís job to keep coming to that conclusion. Itís neater that way.
LB, congrats, post of the year. Says it all.
missy is offline  
Old 12th Feb 2022, 11:07
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: You live where
Posts: 506
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Gentle_flyer View Post
Wasnít CASA doing an AIRSPACE REVIEW?
I thought it had been released. Perhaps it was released and then pulled for a bit more wordsmithing.
missy is offline  
Old 12th Feb 2022, 11:13
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: You live where
Posts: 506
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
GF - I checked the Coroners Court of Victoria website for Inquests into the Mangalore mid-air without success.
That is not to say that the Coroners Court of Victoria has not done an Inquest, only that I could not find it on the Coroners Court of Victoria website.
missy is offline  
Old 12th Feb 2022, 23:53
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 66
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
It"s a conspiracy, man..

MrApp / Missy,

Thanks for your responses...

So no report despite 2 years of an alleged investigation by ATSB?

So no report despite an alleged MNG airspace review by CASA?

So no details despite alleged changes by Airservices?

So ?no coroner's inquiry despite alleged expectations of one as per BLA?

Assume no relevant questions from RRAT Senste Estimates despite overview os ATSB, AsA and CASA tomorrow...

if I was paranoid I'd be crying a conspiracy...

Strangely the four police killed in Victoria in a horrific crash on the Eastern Freeway in Melbourne quite rightly appear to have had complete investigations and responsibility/accountability allocated.

Why are pilots lives worth less?

I'd be ecstatic to be proved wrong by any of the points above...
Gentle_flyer is offline  
Old 13th Feb 2022, 01:36
  #14 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 186
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Hi Missy – Not sure how to take your repetition of my words in regard to reports, so I choose to ignore any implied sarcasm.
Reading the Victorian Coroner's Act I would expect the Office to hold an inquiry – indeed I am aware of how the NSW Coroner handled a mid-air collision at Coolangatta in which four pilots died.
I would however also expect the coroner to wait for both a report from the police and from ATSB before launching such an inquiry. I dare say, like us, the Victorian Coroner is wondering what happened to the ATSB report.
Mr Approach is offline  
Old 13th Feb 2022, 07:00
  #15 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: North Queensland, Australia
Posts: 2,953
Likes: 0
Received 8 Likes on 3 Posts
So, what is it that you want? A mandate on times for release of reports? Fair enough, I guess, but the upshot of that is a commitment from the Federal Government to provide more staff and resources to the ATSB, assuming it's a staffing / resourcing vs backlog of work issue rather than inefficiency.

A completed investigation is something to tick a box, I guess, but it's a far cry from there to prevention of similar future occurrences. Don't get me wrong, a detailed investigation properly conducted and reported is an admirable achievement, but it doesn't fix anything.

What do we actually want? How much will it cost? Does the use of airspace vs cost of providing separation services make it something the taxpayer would or should cough up for?
Arm out the window is offline  
Old 13th Feb 2022, 07:52
  #16 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,142
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Arm out the window View Post
a commitment from the Federal Government to provide more staff and resources to the ATSB, assuming it's a staffing / resourcing vs backlog of work issue rather than inefficiency.
I went to a presentation of theirs a couple of years ago, and staffing was an issue. Those that are there are spread across multiple disciplines and it was said they usually get multiple aviation incident reports across the country each day that need to be dealt with.
CaptainMidnight is offline  
Old 13th Feb 2022, 10:25
  #17 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Australia/India
Posts: 4,683
Received 30 Likes on 21 Posts
A completed investigation is something to tick a box, I guess, but it's a far cry from there to prevention of similar future occurrences. Don't get me wrong, a detailed investigation properly conducted and reported is an admirable achievement, but it doesn't fix anything.
Are you serious?

If yes, then “what we want” is for the waste of resources that is the ATSB, or at least the aviation bit of it, to end. Just set up a piece of software to produce reports with random homilies about lessons that have been learnt before, and be done with it.
Lead Balloon is offline  
Old 13th Feb 2022, 14:49
  #18 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: SA
Age: 62
Posts: 384
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Lead Balloon View Post
lessons that have been learnt before
Australia's leading civilian ANSP brought officials from Skyguide to Australia to talk to ATCs about the ‹berlingen mid-air. Managers determined that such a thing could never happen in Australia. Oh, how we forget. Single controller responsible for larger and larger sectors, less service provision, ill conceived airspace changes.
sunnySA is offline  
Old 13th Feb 2022, 15:13
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: NSW
Posts: 165
Likes: 0
Received 16 Likes on 4 Posts
Report? Blame the pilots, move on. That's the standard isn't it? What else do you want?
Yes....Everything is fine, the airspace is fine, air services is fine, CASA is fine, the ATSB is fine and adequately staffed, mmm yes it's all fine. So stop asking questions... oooo look over there, a shiny red ball.. Go on catch the shiny ball.. yes.good boy.
cLeArIcE is online now  
Old 19th Feb 2022, 00:28
  #20 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 186
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
So - it's the 19th February 2022, two years to the day, and nothing!
Well, not quite, the Government-owned ANSP has reacted to “something” by inventing a new type of ICAO airspace around Mangalore and Ballina. I.E. Class G with traffic information and mandatory reporting for all aircraft, and the ex-CEO of ATSB has joined the ANSP's Board as Deputy Chair to a RAAF fighter pilot.
Come on Mr Joyce, come on Senator McDonald, when is the public going to find out what our “world-famous” aviation inspectorate thinks went wrong?
I guess we should not worry because the preliminary reports said this:
“However, should a critical safety issue be identified during the course of the investigation, the ATSB will immediately notify relevant parties, so appropriate safety action can be taken,” Perhaps it already has........
Mr Approach is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell or Share My Personal Information

Copyright © 2023 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.