What are aviation degree students being told?
Hello ?
Reality calling.
DO NOT listen to academics or flying school spruikers.
QF has had most crew stood down for a year. Domestic is slowly coming back but can fall back into the crater as soon as some idiot Premier decides to close the borders again. Noticed what’s happening in QLD and NSW ?
QF International is dead in the water and will take years to recover. The A380s will probably never fly again.
Virgin International is finished. Permanently.
The effect of this pandemic on Aviation and Tourism is beyond catastrophic and will take many , many years to recover.
Go and do something else.
Reality calling.
DO NOT listen to academics or flying school spruikers.
QF has had most crew stood down for a year. Domestic is slowly coming back but can fall back into the crater as soon as some idiot Premier decides to close the borders again. Noticed what’s happening in QLD and NSW ?
QF International is dead in the water and will take years to recover. The A380s will probably never fly again.
Virgin International is finished. Permanently.
The effect of this pandemic on Aviation and Tourism is beyond catastrophic and will take many , many years to recover.
Go and do something else.
Either be ready to join the wave - or don’t, but the wave will come regardless.
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Believe what you like. There will be a surplus of experienced jet pilots in Australia for the foreseeable future.
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If you’re going to do a degree, at least do a proper one - one from any of the STEM disciplines. Then go spend your $100K on flying lessons. This degree will make you a far better pilot in the long term.
A MECIR with 200 hours TT is a joke, you’re uninsurable and only your daddy will employ you.
It’s no coincidence that the providers of aviation degrees are mostly former hairdressing colleges now calling themselves universities.
A MECIR with 200 hours TT is a joke, you’re uninsurable and only your daddy will employ you.
It’s no coincidence that the providers of aviation degrees are mostly former hairdressing colleges now calling themselves universities.
Anyway I agree the shortage is a scam the world over. I hate reading it and wish it could somehow be classed as false advertising and made illegal. A hiring boom is NOT a shortage. I have heard anecdotally that the US did actually have a shortage around 3 years back, though I don't know of any shortage to have occurred in Europe at least!
It’s not just University that sell these stories, flying schools (not all) are equally as bad. At the end of the day they are a business and want your money through the door. As with all things it’s buyer beware. The people who sign up need to take some responsibility for their actions or lack of career investigation.
It’s not just University that sell these stories, flying schools (not all) are equally as bad. At the end of the day they are a business and want your money through the door. As with all things it’s buyer beware. The people who sign up need to take some responsibility for their actions or lack of career investigation.
Dont know about training standards down under but in Europe 200hrs is the point to advance onto turboprops/medium range jets. All works well here and I had no issues starting in an airline at that 'experience' level. I actually had 160TT when I flew my first passengers in a turboprop.
Anyway I agree the shortage is a scam the world over. I hate reading it and wish it could somehow be classed as false advertising and made illegal. A hiring boom is NOT a shortage. I have heard anecdotally that the US did actually have a shortage around 3 years back, though I don't know of any shortage to have occurred in Europe at least!
Anyway I agree the shortage is a scam the world over. I hate reading it and wish it could somehow be classed as false advertising and made illegal. A hiring boom is NOT a shortage. I have heard anecdotally that the US did actually have a shortage around 3 years back, though I don't know of any shortage to have occurred in Europe at least!
In relation to Universities and what they're telling students, we recently had one posting on here about being told to go do a "Jet Orientation Course" and MCC with about 200hrs TT. I personally did a single semester at a Uni about 12years ago when they were still relatively new and it was awful, lots of talk about Qantas Cadetships which never came about in any meaningful fashion and plenty of courses that were completely irrelevant to Aviation let alone being a Pilot along with people involved who really had no idea, seems like not a lot has changed tbh.
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Surely the Qantas cadets being pumped out of FTA Tawoomba will have a more direct route into Qlink or mainline... surely? They paid the money, and I’m sure were promised the world, not guaranteed anything of course. The first group were even named “the golden 11” to make everyone feel special.
Seriously all jokes aside, it would be good business to get those first groups jobs at qantas ASAP, at least to show future wannabes at FTA that there is a chance after signing up, and therefore guaranteeing fta a more secure future income until the contract with qantas runs its course/ pandemic disappears.
Seriously all jokes aside, it would be good business to get those first groups jobs at qantas ASAP, at least to show future wannabes at FTA that there is a chance after signing up, and therefore guaranteeing fta a more secure future income until the contract with qantas runs its course/ pandemic disappears.
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When the sh#t hits the fan on a dark and stormy night and the bloke in the right hand seat has 200 hours TT its single pilot IFR if your in the left hand seat. Been there. I don’t know how the regulatory authorities have let it happen. Glad I’m retiring soon. The industry ain’t what it used to be.
Very sad.
Very sad.
N4790P
No offence, but there was a reason why the Buffalo crash in the US made them take stock on experience levels for crews. A lot of Pilots might be fine at 160TT but honestly, at that point you're still a very unknown quantity and I think the industry has been riding on past experienced crew for far too long and hoping for the best.
In relation to Universities and what they're telling students, we recently had one posting on here about being told to go do a "Jet Orientation Course" and MCC with about 200hrs TT. I personally did a single semester at a Uni about 12years ago when they were still relatively new and it was awful, lots of talk about Qantas Cadetships which never came about in any meaningful fashion and plenty of courses that were completely irrelevant to Aviation let alone being a Pilot along with people involved who really had no idea, seems like not a lot has changed tbh.
In relation to Universities and what they're telling students, we recently had one posting on here about being told to go do a "Jet Orientation Course" and MCC with about 200hrs TT. I personally did a single semester at a Uni about 12years ago when they were still relatively new and it was awful, lots of talk about Qantas Cadetships which never came about in any meaningful fashion and plenty of courses that were completely irrelevant to Aviation let alone being a Pilot along with people involved who really had no idea, seems like not a lot has changed tbh.
Incompetence, poor training yes, but experience no
To an airline a 5-10,000hr pilot is only a known quantity for as much as you can glean from them during a brief selection process, many an airline has recruited a high houred pilot only to discover the person they thought they were hiring was not the person who existed in reality.
Not only does the rest of the world outside of the USA put low time pilots into the FO seat, it’s been going on in Australia for decades at a rate higher than most posters here would realise. Norwegians, Swedes, Finns other Europeans can put low houred CPLs into the RHS of a big turboprop or jet and have them operate in poor winter conditions in near perfect safety.
A thorough selection process combined with standardised and appropriate training and oversight avoids the problems which led to a Colgan 3407 crash.
Last edited by dr dre; 15th Mar 2021 at 22:43.
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No offence, but there was a reason why the Buffalo crash in the US made them take stock on experience levels for crews. A lot of Pilots might be fine at 160TT but honestly, at that point you're still a very unknown quantity and I think the industry has been riding on past experienced crew for far too long and hoping for the best.
In relation to Universities and what they're telling students, we recently had one posting on here about being told to go do a "Jet Orientation Course" and MCC with about 200hrs TT. I personally did a single semester at a Uni about 12years ago when they were still relatively new and it was awful, lots of talk about Qantas Cadetships which never came about in any meaningful fashion and plenty of courses that were completely irrelevant to Aviation let alone being a Pilot along with people involved who really had no idea, seems like not a lot has changed tbh.
In relation to Universities and what they're telling students, we recently had one posting on here about being told to go do a "Jet Orientation Course" and MCC with about 200hrs TT. I personally did a single semester at a Uni about 12years ago when they were still relatively new and it was awful, lots of talk about Qantas Cadetships which never came about in any meaningful fashion and plenty of courses that were completely irrelevant to Aviation let alone being a Pilot along with people involved who really had no idea, seems like not a lot has changed tbh.
Beyond the first few hundred hours it is mainly raw skill and quality of training that dictate the quality of the pilot. You know as well as I do that there are 500hr FOs out there performing better than some 2,000hr FOs.
Again referring back to the Colgan/Buffalo incident, the real question is how a fully qualified crew managed to end up in such a situation. What about training and checking? It sounds like that failed. I did not hear of protests and lobbying to review training and checking procedures though, this would have made far more sense as it was ultimately the reason that plane crashed.
Last edited by A320LGW; 15th Mar 2021 at 22:58.
Dont know about training standards down under but in Europe 200hrs is the point to advance onto turboprops/medium range jets. All works well here and I had no issues starting in an airline at that 'experience' level. I actually had 160TT when I flew my first passengers in a turboprop.
Anyway I agree the shortage is a scam the world over. I hate reading it and wish it could somehow be classed as false advertising and made illegal. A hiring boom is NOT a shortage. I have heard anecdotally that the US did actually have a shortage around 3 years back, though I don't know of any shortage to have occurred in Europe at least!
Anyway I agree the shortage is a scam the world over. I hate reading it and wish it could somehow be classed as false advertising and made illegal. A hiring boom is NOT a shortage. I have heard anecdotally that the US did actually have a shortage around 3 years back, though I don't know of any shortage to have occurred in Europe at least!
I know the argument about “what relevance does flying a 210 have with flying an A320”, and yes there’s not a lot of relevance in some ways. But I’ve flown with F/O’s with both backgrounds, and it’s beyond the SOP’s where the one with more experience will prove their worth. Problem solving, lateral thinking, workload management, just a few things that come with an experienced pilot.
While there’s hundreds of highly experienced pilots driving buses, there will be very little need to put low time pilots in the right seat in Australia
While there’s hundreds of highly experienced pilots driving buses, there will be very little need to put low time pilots in the right seat in Australia
Last edited by neville_nobody; 16th Mar 2021 at 02:20.
Thread Starter
The USA 1500 rule was touted as lifting standards in the cockpit. This wasn't necessarily true. What it was about was improvements to pay and work rules. A 200 hour fresh CPL will work for next to nothing to fly a jet. With 1500 hours they value their experience and expect a more than $1600 a month to live on (the FO wages at the time). You also can't live in most US major cities on that money so people lived at home and commuted to work on jumpseats and slept in crew rooms because they couldn't afford a hotel for a day off between trips.
And judging by pay and contracts now it seems to have worked.
And judging by pay and contracts now it seems to have worked.
While there’s hundreds of highly experienced pilots driving buses, there will be very little need to put low time pilots in the right seat in Australia
An experienced pilot could also bring bad habits, poor attitudes, change resistance, an unwillingness to adapt to new methods etc. Much easier to sort out a poor attitude early on in a career if the training oversight is thorough enough to identify those weaknesses. Lateral thinking and those other personal traits in a way are natural aspects of personality irrelevant to how much prior experience you have.
What’s to say an experienced pilot can’t adapt? And then have the added bonus of experience to be able to critically asses a situation.
It’s an age old argument, but I’ve flown with experienced pilots and cadet pilots in the right seat, and as an overall package, I’ll in most circumstances take the experienced pilot on a dark stormy night.
PPRuNe Handmaiden
Yes dear. I remember that tale you told me when you saw an innocuous looking cloud. FO suggested a heading change. You said "nah, she'll be right. I know clouds". Cue quite a thumping from the innocuous cloud.
"so... tell me again about those thousands of hours you have?"
"so... tell me again about those thousands of hours you have?"
