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Info on History of Licensing in Australia

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Info on History of Licensing in Australia

Old 20th Feb 2021, 19:17
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Info on History of Licensing in Australia

Hi Guys,

Im doing a course in Aviation Law at UNSW, not being from Australia I wanted a bit of clarification about what Iíve read. Not sure if there are any Australian Aviation History buffs here but Iíll throw the question out there anyway.

Having read a bit I discovered that between 1936 and approximately 1964 the Commonwealth government was barred from regulating aviation for intrastate flights (I.e. flights not crossing international or state borders). In 1947 all states adopted the commonwealth air navigation regulations as state law to create uniform aviation regulations nationwide. So was wondering:
  1. Before the 1947 adoption of the uniform Air Navigation Act by the state, what was the condition of regulations in each state. Were there unregulated states? Weíre there huge differences in regulations between states?
  2. Between 1947-1964 when states adopted uniform regulation were there separate state and commonwealth licenses issued? Could a pilot with a commonwealth license fly intrastate, or did he need to have both a state and commonwealth license?

Thanks

Last edited by Airmann; 21st Feb 2021 at 02:27.
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Old 20th Feb 2021, 22:05
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Good luck. Not even Casa understands their own regulations as theyíre currently written.
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Old 20th Feb 2021, 22:09
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Relevance your Honour
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Old 21st Feb 2021, 00:16
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Much relevance for OP, not for everyone.

Originally Posted by Airmann View Post
Im doing a course in Aviation Law at UNSW, not being from Australia I wanted a bit of clarification about what Iíve read.
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Old 21st Feb 2021, 06:20
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Originally Posted by Airmann View Post
Hi Guys,

Im doing a course in Aviation Law at UNSW, not being from Australia I wanted a bit of clarification about what Iíve read. Not sure if there are any Australian Aviation History buffs here but Iíll throw the question out there anyway.

Having read a bit I discovered that between 1936 and approximately 1964 the Commonwealth government was barred from regulating aviation for intrastate flights (I.e. flights not crossing international or state borders). In 1947 all states adopted the commonwealth air navigation regulations as state law to create uniform aviation regulations nationwide. So was wondering:
  1. Before the 1947 adoption of the uniform Air Navigation Act by the state, what was the condition of regulations in each state. Were there unregulated states? Weíre there huge differences in regulations between states?
  2. Between 1947-1964 when states adopted uniform regulation were there separate state and commonwealth licenses issued? Could a pilot with a commonwealth license fly intrastate, or did he need to have both a state and commonwealth license?

Thanks
You might contact the Civil Aviation Historical Society. They have records going back to the early days of aviation in Australia, are very helpful and a mine of information..

The Civil Aviation Historical Society & Airways Museum
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Old 21st Feb 2021, 08:25
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Ask Sunfish! Surely will have the answers.

I’m actually not being sarcastic here, you seem to know everything about every subject so I reckon old skool CAA is a no brainer.

And yes I think I just paid you a compliment, as cryptic as can be!
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Old 21st Feb 2021, 11:59
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Ask Sunfish! Surely will have the answers.
Ya reckon?? Thinks he knows everything.
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Old 21st Feb 2021, 21:17
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Going back to the years when we paid Air Navigation charges, being national, no impediment to flying anywhere in Oz as far as I knew.
I’m talking non passenger carrying ops here.
After a mapping project in the NT and back at Qld base we had an Ops inspection.
I was somewhat gobsmacked when the FOI said , I hope you haven’t been operating outside Queensland. You need an INTER state licence, you can only operate INTRA state ie within Qld. WTF. !
I humbly replied no... and as soon as they were out the door I rang Dept of Transport Qld and was eventually put thru to a fellow in the Aviation division.
Explaining the predicament, he laughed and said an interstate licence was only required for the airlines. All else free as a bird.
What the bureauchaos is these days I have no idea...worse no doubt.
Bureaucrats fool, OK !
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Old 21st Feb 2021, 22:07
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You should PM a bloke called Iron Bar. He probably wrote your text book.
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Old 21st Feb 2021, 23:09
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Originally Posted by aroa View Post
Going back to the years when we paid Air Navigation charges, being national, no impediment to flying anywhere in Oz as far as I knew.
Iím talking non passenger carrying ops here.
After a mapping project in the NT and back at Qld base we had an Ops inspection.
I was somewhat gobsmacked when the FOI said , I hope you havenít been operating outside Queensland. You need an INTER state licence, you can only operate INTRA state ie within Qld. WTF. !
@aroa thanks for the info. So there were state licenses and interstate licenses. So does that system still exist?
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Old 22nd Feb 2021, 00:04
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They weren't separate pilot licenses! Pilot licenses have always been a Federal responsibility. You might like to look at the timeline of the Constitution to see why that is the case. The license aroa is referring to is a license to operate an airline within the State. Much like a license to operate a TV or radio station or a casino within a state. Crown has a license to operate a casino in Melbourne and WA but cannot get a license to operate in NSW.
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Old 22nd Feb 2021, 05:18
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Thanks for sending me down a rabbit hole for last 30 minutes. I initially thought that this sounded crazy having been taught that the legal basis for federal aviation regulations came from the "external affairs" power and Australia's adoption of the various international conventions on civil aviation. But it would seem your research is on point. Was this, http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/journal...ev/1965/14.pdf, one of your references?
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Old 22nd Feb 2021, 08:50
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A very interesting Early Aviator who had the new aviation laws tested upon him is Goya Henry.
I suggest you look up his law case.



adb.anu.edu.au/biography/henry-henry-goya-6643
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Old 22nd Feb 2021, 21:20
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Originally Posted by thomxof View Post
A very interesting Early Aviator who had the new aviation laws tested upon him is Goya Henry.
I suggest you look up his law case.

adb.anu.edu.au/biography/henry-henry-goya-6643
Actually, that's a bio, if you want the initial case here 'tis (I've been trying to upload the original document as a PDF, but it won't work, so here's an interpretation courtesy AustLII...):

R v Burgess [1936] HCA 52; (1936) 55 CLR 608 (10 November 1936)
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Old 23rd Feb 2021, 00:48
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A company set up a helicopter operation in Tasmania in 1975, I was led to believe that the state government gave the company virtual monopoly rights for operations within the state as the state wanted a permanent operator rather than some out of state operator flying in for a specific contract and departing on completion, which was how things worked up until that time. Another operator would only be permitted to enter the state if the resident operator was unable to provide the service.
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Old 23rd Feb 2021, 06:45
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I think the regulation might have got changed following the High Court Decision in Airlines of New South Wales Pty Ltd v New South Wales (No 2) [1964] HCA 2 .... Have a look at the reasoning of the judgement, it was a major case in Constitution Law in Australia
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Old 23rd Feb 2021, 07:21
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Ha ha. Mr Goya Henry!



In 1936, the year of the High Court decision in his favour, he was the first pilot to fly - illegally and upside down - under the newly completed Sydney Harbour Bridge while his licence was suspended, reinforcing his reputation as a daredevil, piratical pilot.
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Old 23rd Feb 2021, 08:39
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Dick Smith , in reading about (Henry) Goya Henry I was reminded somewhat of Maurice Kirk (aka the Flying Vet)...

No wish to contribute to thread drift here, however I'm sure a quick search of this site (eg. here, here or here), or his own site, might reveal why!

hyg , thanks, link to that is here
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Old 23rd Feb 2021, 11:04
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The Constitution of Australia lists certain things over which the Commonwealth has powers - and since Aviation did not exist when the Constitution was adopted in 1900, it is not on the list.
Originally, the Royal Aero Club movement issued licences which really had no legal validity. Class A or Private Licences or Class B Airservice licences !
Then in the thirties, the military decided they would run aviation, civil and military and took over issuing licences.
Come the middle of the '30's one skilled pilot named Goya Henry flew under the nice new Sydney Harbour Bridge which slightly annoyed the then so called Director of Civil Aviation, one Colonel Blimp...... no sorry, one Colonel Brinsmead, who promptly informed Mr Henry that his licence was cancelled.
Mr Henry no doubt responded in the gentlemanly manner of the times but he went on flying and simply said he did not need a licence - and the High Court agreed.

Then a bit of a World War came along and nobody did much Private Flying for a while.
In 1944, the Commonwealth of Australia signed on to the Chicago treaty that launched ICAO and that was in exercise of the foreign affairs power which was a COmmonwealth Power but it did not really enable the CofA to regulate all aviation.
I suggest you read Professor Ron Bartsch's works on Aviation Law in Australia for a more accurate and educated dissertation on the subject but as an aside, to this day you can see the history in the "Applicability" statements of our Civil Aviation Regulations, so carefully spelled out instead of simply "all aviation".

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Old 23rd Feb 2021, 11:55
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Airmann... it was an operating licence to carry pax across state borders, nothing to do with the pilots licence.
Probably a throw back from the days when there were state border posts to regulate and impose fees on incoming commerce.
one does have a right to free trade these days but CASA haven’t got that far yet.

As aviation hadn’t been invented then , no clauses in the Constitution to protect it. So here we are in the 21 st century with a looney corporate bureaucracy “running” (sic) the show.
To the great and costly detriment to the nation.
Sad but true.
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