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A plea for brevity - CTAF Broadcasts

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A plea for brevity - CTAF Broadcasts

Old 5th Feb 2021, 12:36
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Poppjo
Try flying into a G Port, full circuit, in a 70T machine with nobody talking. Might grind the gears of other GA pilots broadcasting each leg, sure makes my life easier though.
So you need everybody in a "full" circuit to broadcast every position so you can slot in. Let me think about that.
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Old 5th Feb 2021, 19:00
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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I'm probably going to get flamed for this, for those who insist on broadcasting their position on every leg of the circuit (even if there's no-one else there), is it necessary to prefix EVERY call with "Springfield traffic..."?
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Old 5th Feb 2021, 19:01
  #23 (permalink)  
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I”m glad the response has not been general yawns.

Runaway G: touché.

Unnecessary calls are a related but different issue.

This intrigues me, Ix:
I'd highly disagree with leaving out "of the field", that's a dangerous assumption IMHO, what if you've simply not registered the fact that they're giving a different key location or the radio dropped for a second whilst saying it? Also don't drop the feet part, once again this is for clarity, if you're hearing someone with a choppy radio how do I know you're talking about feet of altitude and weren't mentioning a distance in meters like visibility or something? There are good reasons we use feet for altitude and meters for visibility and saying Feet or Meters means that even with a garbled transmission I still know what that 3,500 was referring to.
Why is it “dangerous” to assume, when someone reports inbound to/overflying a named location, that the location is the aerodrome/airfield of that name? It seems to me that the ‘key location’ is the aerodrome/airfield.

Can you provide an example of where there’s a safety benefit of broadcasting, on a CTAF, a position by reference to a place other than an aerodrome/airfield?

Why would someone be transmitting visibility data in a CTAF broadcast? I can’t recall ever having done so in the last few decades, but my experience may be narrow. If it were ever necessary/useful, I reckon I would just make that clear in the broadcast. Can you provide a common example of important distance information, other than nms, included in CTAF broadcasts?
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Old 5th Feb 2021, 19:22
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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Just do what the book says, FFS

(The "book" is the AIP. And if you're not 100% sure you're phrasing your transmissions in the manner the "book" says, go and read it again)

It's pretty simple really.

(Cannot believe there's PPRuNe's in here discussing the matter. "I recorded the brief version and it took 10 seconds...then I recorded the longwinded version and it took 12 seconds" - find ANOTHER interest! (Irony noted))
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Old 5th Feb 2021, 20:10
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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......and to all those who think it's impressive to rattle off a call at high speed, slow it down a bit so we can actually UNDERSTAND what you are saying.
Our local NZ airfield has a Sky Dive operator whose pilots think it is Smart and Professional to rattle off their many position reports and " Two minutes to drop" reports as fast as they can. Over the years I have learned to recognise what they are trying to say, but visiting pilots haven't the faintest idea. I once responded with " If you fly as fast as you talk, I'm getting outta here"

Not only students, some New York ATC operators were speed merchants, and after listening to many ":Please repeat" " say all after " etc. I once heard a Southern accented American Airlines pilot say " Say, Kennedy Tower, d'y'all hear how slow ah talk ? Waal - that's how slow ah think, say again, slowly."

One of our co-pilots departing New York once had difficulty copying then then long and complicated clearance, this was before the invention of SID's and STAR's and again after many please repeats and say all afters, the controller said " OK, listen everybody, we have a Limey here, so I'm goin' to say it again REAL slow."
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Old 5th Feb 2021, 21:44
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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I first heard the "High speed call" phenomenon when dealing with artillery. It is tempting for young players to confuse speed of delivery with efficiency and professionalism and that was what was happening. I hear it sometimes when flying, almost always on CTAF frequencies. I don't think I've ever heard this behaviour on area frequencies the jet pilots are certainly brief, but never hurried to the point of unintelligibility. In fact its good education to listen on Area for a while.

It's important to think about speed of comprehension, not speed of delivery.
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Old 5th Feb 2021, 23:32
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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Great story ExSp33db1rd.

Less is more but some lessons are forgotten quickly. Tenerife is a good example of an accident which forced the introduction of standard phraseology, clear, concise instructions and more importantly, correct read back.

Anyway, this thread is about brevity in the CTAF and whilst too chatter much might be painful to some not enough R/T is likely dangerous. Not everyone has the same situational awareness. The CASA R/T guide is pretty close to the money.
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Old 6th Feb 2021, 05:38
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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" Say, Kennedy Tower, d'y'all hear how slow ah talk ? Waal - that's how slow ah think, say again, slowly."
I'll bet you didn't hear that, I'll bet you read it in an aviation mag like the rest of us.
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Old 6th Feb 2021, 06:48
  #29 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by 737pnf
Just do what the book says, FFS

(The "book" is the AIP. And if you're not 100% sure you're phrasing your transmissions in the manner the "book" says, go and read it again)

It's pretty simple really.

(Cannot believe there's PPRuNe's in here discussing the matter. "I recorded the brief version and it took 10 seconds...then I recorded the longwinded version and it took 12 seconds" - find ANOTHER interest! (Irony noted))
A rather dogmatic post there, 737pnf.

Are you able to quote the precise bits of the AIP to which you refer? So far as I can tell - happy to stand corrected - all AIP says authoritatively on the subject of the content of broadcasts in the vicinity of aerodromes in G is:
The standard broadcast format is:

a. {Location} Traffic [I got this wrong above. “Traffic Richmond” is wrong. “Richmond Traffic” is correct.]

b. {Aircraft type}

c. {Callsign}

d. {Position/level/intentions}

e. {Location}
Para (d) is where all the ‘creative licence’ is taken.
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Old 6th Feb 2021, 11:13
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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How long ago did they change from “All stations Richmond...” to “Richmond traffic...”?
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Old 6th Feb 2021, 18:23
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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Our local NZ airfield has a Sky Dive operator whose pilots think it is Smart and Professional to rattle off their many position reports and " Two minutes to drop" reports as fast as they can.
Not just NZ - the guys operating at Caloundra have taken the speed-transmitting course too.
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Old 6th Feb 2021, 18:56
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Checkboard
How long ago did they change from “All stations Richmond...” to “Richmond traffic...”?
Probably nearing 10 years!
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Old 6th Feb 2021, 19:17
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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Not just NZ - the guys operating at Caloundra have taken the speed-transmitting course too.
You sorta have to there, it's like Chicago Ground on that frequency. You learn good lookout in that training area!
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Old 6th Feb 2021, 19:56
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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I think some pilots in ctaf are following
aip gen 3.3-11 (taxi to the fuel bowser, etc..) instead of recommendations in
aip enr 1.1-70.

​​​​Ultimately, 10.1.16 is the key paragraph which is open for interpretation.

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Old 6th Feb 2021, 20:35
  #35 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Dora-9
I'm probably going to get flamed for this, for those who insist on broadcasting their position on every leg of the circuit (even if there's no-one else there), is it necessary to prefix EVERY call with "Springfield traffic..."?
If there appears to be no one in the circuit after I've done the 'joining' call, I'll do just one more: short final, just in case someone's started up after my 'joining' call. I do say ABC short final 'Springfield'.

The reason I still include the location on that short final call is that in the region in which I do most of my flying, you can often simultaneously hear all of the traffic at 4 or 5 locations that use 126.7. On a nice sunny Sunday like today, YTMU will be abuzz, as will YCWR. Then add the occasional traffic at YWWL and YYNG and YCTM. (Mercifully, YTEM has a different CTAF.) Hence my plea for brevity!
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Old 6th Feb 2021, 21:07
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Dora-9
Not just NZ - the guys operating at Caloundra have taken the speed-transmitting course too.
unfortunately the local ra-aus school keeps pushing the “more and faster is better” regime.
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Old 7th Feb 2021, 06:25
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by McLimit
cool like wearing your asic and wanka bars into DFO.
BuT hOw ElSe WiLl ThEY KnOw I’m A pILoT!?!$!?

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Old 7th Feb 2021, 07:50
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by triadic
In regard to reporting every leg of the circuit, I believe some schools actually teach that!

They certainly do, and it defies the logic of judicious radio alerted avoidance. They also teach students to begin their CTAF calls at 25 nm, and from there, at 5 mile intervals into the circuit. Less - is - More for me.
happy days,
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Old 7th Feb 2021, 09:46
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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It was said some years back that the recommended time to call inbound should be 7 minutes. CASA could not cope with that so it never happened. But think about it. No matter if your a jet or a C150, 7 minutes is a good time to call. Saying it should be a distance does not allow for speed.
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Old 7th Feb 2021, 09:56
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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The way I see it is that I give an inbound broadcast about 6 minutes out so there is time to sort separation. I also give a call joining downwind, maybe mid downwind if I join over the top, and a call turning base. This one is the biggie coz potential conflicts get serious now. Also coz I'm turning, the aircraft is as easy to spot as it will ever be.
You don't need to say much on these calls, just place & position with ETA as well for the inbound.
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