Airservices Class E changes

[Capn Bloggs]

Originally Posted by MClimit

You'll be separated from IFR and you WILL HAVE traffic on VFR.

NO WE WON'T. For a start, Class E does not require it. That is the whole point of E: VFR do their own thing with no consideration of others! For goodness sake. Martha and John King rammed that down our throats here 15 years ago on the "hard sell" tour. Now IF ATC can see a VFR (no radar or ADS-B coverage down low), then they MAY tell us about it but are not obliged to: AIP-"IFR receive traffic information on VFR flights as far as is practicable."

Originally Posted by MClint

The States doesn't have a VFR transponder requirement in E, Australia HAS a transponder requirement on VFR in E.

That's only because Dick knew he would get nowhere without it (given that heavy metal operations through unknown VFR airspace, especially terminal, was and still is sheer lunacy). TCAS is NOT a method of mitigating collisions; it is a last-ditch safety tool like GPWS and the STCA.

[10JQKA]

Does anyone find it a little odd that in a draft airspace review from Sept 2020 CASA recommends that Airservices change the airspace above Broome TWR D from E to D as the E is not fit for purpose or safe enough.

The Airservices response in Jan 2021 rejects that recommendation.

So in a nutshell they are proposing to bring in airspace which has failed in Broome to the whole J-curve !

Am I missing something?



https://consultation.casa.gov.au/stakeholder-engagement-group/draft-rpt-broome-karratha-2020-prelim-airspace-r/supporting_documents/Draft_airspace_review_of_broome_and_karratha_2020.pdf

https://consultation.casa.gov.au/stakeholder-engagement-group/draft-rpt-broome-karratha-2020-prelim-airspace-r/supporting_documents/Airservices_airspace_review_response.pdf

[Chronic Snoozer]

Originally Posted by Capn Bloggs

Anybody who seriously thinks that any commercial operation should use See and Avoid as a primary method of separation with other aircraft (eg jets in a CAF) quite frankly has no credibility in this argument. None.

+1. .

[Gentle_flyer]

Folks.

We could be better than this! (Again)

I get sick for few days and when I return I find unjustifiable arrogance, ignorance. abuse, unsupported and / or unexplained claims of knowledge etc

The PPRUNE MNG accident thread verged on a lot of the same but when I printed out the whole thread (245 pages) and ignored the above as well as the irrelevant but noted all the relevant comments there was a lot of value there...

I am doing the same for this thread.

What really concerns me here is that no one has the complete picture! And yet Airservices is proceeding to implement two major counterintuitive changes, ie SAFIS and CLASS E 1500 East Coast “J Curve”. One from April / May 2021 and the other by DEC 2021.

Based on preceding ATSB reports I don’t believe the MNG ATSB Final report will be comprehensive to the point where the contents fully explain what went wrong.

It may take the Coroner’s Inquiry do do that. Yet apparently changes are being implemented on the assumed causes of accident.

To ASSUME is dangerous because it usually makes an ASS out of U and ME.

Despite the conspiracy theories abounding in the world at the moment, it is enlightening to see incompetence noted as often the true reason things happen.

Incomptence perhaps coupled with some self interest coupled with amateur Machiavellian constructs of a strawman etc and of course the dreaded Dunning Kruger effect.

Google it while you can and reflect that maybe we are all suffering a little bit from it as we accuse AsA, CASA and ATSB of major sufferance.

Be nice to each other in your passionate disagreement and maybe the sum of all knowledge from everyone’s contribution will far exceed what any one of us can offer and perhaps provide a solution as well as dispatching the strawman to the bonfire.

We CAN be better than this!

[Sunfish]

In the spirit of your post GF, what is to be done?

We have competing interests to be balanced:

-RPT
-GA/RAA
-Military.

We have an aviation culture in Australia that is toxic and far too dictatorial that is not used to compromise and win/win behaviour.

We have a risk averse, legalistic public service:

AIrservices has an imposed profit motive.

....And an inefficient, unjust, unreasonable and criminal justice based regulatory environment.

To quoute the punchline from the old Irish joke: "Well frankly I wouldn't start from here".

[Squawk7700]

Gentle_Flyer, this is a mostly anonymous discussion on the internet, not a senate enquiry.

You could come up with the worlds best airspace management solution right here in this thread and it would not matter, because nobody “important” will read it and take note.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

From #3,

Is it then left to 'TCAS' to be ULTIMATE "Traffic Info Service'...??

So far, the responses are simply 'wish lists' from Santa....the ONLY guy who doesn't NEED TCAS........

Cheers

[sunnySA]

Originally Posted by Sunfish

In the spirit of your post GF, what is to be done?

We have competing interests to be balanced:

-RPT
-GA/RAA
-Military.

We have an aviation culture in Australia that is toxic and far too dictatorial that is not used to compromise and win/win behaviour.

We have a risk averse, legalistic public service:

AIrservices has an imposed profit motive.

....And an inefficient, unjust, unreasonable and criminal justice based regulatory environment.

To quoute the punchline from the old Irish joke: "Well frankly I wouldn't start from here".

Did we have all these problems when it was DCA? To quote a former colleague (RIP), "maybe the best outcome is for the worst outcome to occur" (and yes g_f, we are better than this), the AsA imposed profit distorts good public policy and better safety outcomes. And, yes, many within the Industry (and of course, many now outside the Industry) have been victim of a "criminal justice based regulatory environment".

I doubt much will change via pprune, may it may prompt some discussions elsewhere, it may prompt an individual to ask a series of coherent questions and seek responses that led to a positive change. One pebble at a time, one stone at a time grasshopper.

I think CASA has been remarkably silent throughout this. Clearly they should be the ones who decide (with Industry, with extensive consultation) the services to be provided and AsA (or another provider) provides them, whether they be Class A, B, C, D, E, F or G, whether they be a provided from a en-route Centre, an Approach Unit, a Control Tower (with our without radar surveillance), a CAGRO or a pie cart using semaphore or SMS messages (think about that for a moment).

And hopefully we can then have an aviation culture in Australia that is gentle, that is safe and can handle mature discussions based on facts, data and the best of intentions and the best safety outcomes, the best environmental outcomes and the best financial outcomes.

[sunnySA]

Originally Posted by Ex FSO GRIFFO

From #3,

Is it then left to 'TCAS' to be ULTIMATE "Traffic Info Service'...??

Cheers

TCAS and (a well understood and refined) STCA should be a safety net, like GPWS and MSAW alerts, the last line of defence. Or we suggesting that we using GPWS to conduct an IFR arrival in IMC?
The problem is that expenditure in air traffic control equipment and technologies has lagged significantly behind aircraft avionics. Not enough $ spent in the correct areas, and once again AsA returning a dividend to the government has clearly distorted better safety outcomes.

[missy]

Originally Posted by Gentle_flyer

Folks,

I just want to confirm that the airspace above MNG will NOT BE E when SAFIS is active.

IT WILL BE G. No separation just traffic. So please all those who think MNG will be E - 1500AGL to A085 that is only true outside SAFIS hours of operation.

There really should be 2 diagrams. When SAFIS is operating and when SAFIS isn't operating.

And for those air traffic controllers reading and wondering how they will operate such a system using a 500NM display range, how did it come to that in the first place? Service Delivery Environment, a half baked concept, poorly implemented and then partly wound back. Large sector sizes could be possible in the late evenings and during your night shifts, but they don't work when there needs to be close attention paid to a number of aerodromes, plus the other traffic, including but not limited to sequencing, hand-offs, diversions etc. I suggest that you re-read Überlingen and the fact that Peter was operating a degraded system and was operating two consoles at the one time.

[Capn Bloggs]

Originally Posted by Mclimit

Forgotten where you came from? Oh that's right, you never did GA, RAAF old son!

Ha ha. Can't win the argument by sticking to the facts/what's written in AIP so resort to personal attacks. Luv ya work, mclimit.

[McLimit]

uhhhmmmm, Bloggs, pot, kettle? (I don't really like that response, it's such a cliche' but it's all I can think of at the moment, I spent a lot of time on some comedy gold last night, bit tired)

And the argument was lost a long time ago, silly old goats rule the world unfortunately. I'm a bit older, not as old as you, but I pride myself on my open mind and progressive attitude. I also enjoy the benefits of, and have been fortunate to travel, working in other countries and not being blinded by the ignorance of thinking that just because we live in a country with drinkable tap water that we do it better than everyone else. The lucky country eh? Have you read the book?

[Squawk7700]

Where is “the name is Porter?” He would normally have a strong opinion and a good grasp on all of this.

[Capn Bloggs]

Aha! Of course, Mclimit...

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

He would normally have a strong opinion and a good grasp on all of this.

I think the mandated PPRuNe quota for posters is only 50% of the above. Either but not both.

[McLimit]

The Name Is Porter would be posting if he/she wasn't banned (assuming?) He/she is/was a major **** stirrer, doesn't mean that he/she didn't know what he/she was talking about? The same as Cap'n Bloggs, knows his/her way around an aircraft? Or Squawk knows his/her way around IT, but Sunfish doesn't know anything about aviation, that's a given.

[Gentle_flyer]

McLimit.

Coould you just focus your enviable brainpower for ?15 minutes and educate everyone on this thread as to the problems/issues of the implementation of SAFIS by AsA in April 2021.

Thanks in anticipation!

G_f.

I also sympathise and understand your frustration with the apparent mediocrity in this country.

And yes I’ve read The Lucky Country and know the real intent of the book.

You may find the writings of Don Watson interesting in providing a modern day reflection of Australia as per Donald Horne almost 50 years ago.

[mostlytossas]

This is unbelievable. If they introduce this SAFIS then ASA are just recreating the old AFIS. For the under 40's these were situated all over Australia at airports that were considered not busy enough to require a tower but too busy to be what is now called a CTAF.
Places like Wagga, Kalgoolie, Leigh Creek, Dubbo and host of others were situated around the country. On memory they had a 30mile radius and up to 5000ft with a flight service unit located on site. To fly into or through that airspace you would call up at the 30mile boundary and advise intensions. FS would then pass traffic both IFR and VFR to you and you to others in your area. You would give them your ETA aircraft type etc and they would pass on wind local QNH and runway direction in use. They had no control function it was purely advisory. They also were a briefing office for the lodgment of flight plans, weather briefings etc. I think under Dick's chairmanship of the then CAA they were closed down due cost and these Flight service officers all given redundancy.
This SAFIS proposal is just slightly different boundaries and the Fight service provided by ATC in the city centres. Talk about the wheel of progress going around! And they get paid well for this?
I'm sure Ex FSO Griffo could enlighten us about history repeating itself. Next they will bring back MTAF's under a new name. Or perhaps where RPT are operating we have a big red ball hoisted on a flagpole at the airfield half hour before the RPT's arrival or departure. On seeing this all other aircraft must land!

[Lead Balloon]

My recollection is that the radius of an AFIZ was 15nms. As I recall, YNRM was just outside the boundary of the YSDU AFIZ.

History repeating repeating. AFIZ, MATF, MBZ, CTAF(R). It's just an episode of Utopia.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Thankyou Mr 'mt'.

Now, where DID I leave those car keys..???

Its OK though, when I DO find them, I STILL know what a car is and what they are for.........



Tks again Dick........