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Rejected Take-Off and Flight Time

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Rejected Take-Off and Flight Time

Old 21st Dec 2020, 23:21
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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I'd log it, anytime you get in an aircraft and turn on the engine with the intent to get airborne it should be counted. It's not a matter of gaining "Experience" and you're not doing it for "Parker Pen Hours" or "BIC Hours", it's a matter of your logbook correctly reflecting what you've done for the day towards FnD hours.

As noted above as well, if you're in an Aircraft, taxi off and get delayed on the Tarmac for 2hrs are you just going to pretend you weren't out there for 2hrs? We all also include our taxi time in our logbooks so to now suddenly decide that time doesn't count seems a bit odd too. They don't specify what a "Flight" is so you need to think about what the spirit of your logbook is and the spirit of it is that it accurately records time you've spent in an aircraft in the duties of Flying as an accurate record of your experience and also in defence of your FnD hours you record should the relevant authority ever come knocking.
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Old 22nd Dec 2020, 01:25
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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This is why Australia will never send a person to the moon
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Old 22nd Dec 2020, 01:37
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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I have also seen plenty of military pilots add the additional taxi time to their total hours when applying for civilian jobs so it works both ways. Not many civilian pilots are able to start up taxi out and takeoff in one movement so I would suggest that the military pilots are getting bonus hours by adding the "taxiing" component.
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Old 22nd Dec 2020, 01:50
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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You say you’re not concerned about it yet you ask if you should log it.
If this was a solo lesson to be performed you will do so at a later date and log that one.
Don’t log it and don’t get all worked up about definitions.
Under FAA you can log a lot of things but counting that towards a certificate of rating is a different story.
I know you’re not training under FAA but the rules are the same if not very similar.
Do not log anything you’re not 100% confident in explaining to either an Examiner or an Aviation Inspector.

Here is a litter scenario for you to consider:

Through no fault of yours you get a flat tire during landing and you end up getting towed to the ramp.
A friendly Aviation Inspector who’s there chatting with a charter pilot wonders over and asks you if everything is ok and what happened. He asks if he may see your logbook to verify your solo privileges.
He frowns.........then turns the logbook over to you and says: page 17 line item 3 what is all that about?
You go:.......uh

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Old 22nd Dec 2020, 02:14
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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Don't know the case today, but in my time in helos it was legal for only time not in contact with mother earth that went in the maintenance log, ground running didn't count. On some jobs, to pull some figures out of the nether regions by way of example, you could spend eight hours sat at the controls running, but only three hours airborne, three went in the maintenance log, the customer got charged for eight, guess what went in the PIC column of the personal log.
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Old 22nd Dec 2020, 02:55
  #26 (permalink)  
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Thank you all for your input

Thank you all for your input, that was an interesting read.

Originally Posted by B2N2 View Post
You say you’re not concerned about it yet you ask if you should log it.
I'd like to just clarify that I'm trying to work out if there is a "requirement", not an "opportunity", to log the time. And yes, I'm just being pedantic.

Originally Posted by Lead Balloon View Post
Nobody’s looked at the most important definition: That of “flight” in the Civil Aviation Act.
Yes, I think it would be reasonable to conclude that this exercise did not fit the definition of "flight" as defined by the Civil Aviation Act and so there is no time to be logged.
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Old 22nd Dec 2020, 05:49
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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Log it as it was for the purpose of a flight in my opinion, and document it correctly in your logbook. Not sure what the reg states today, however it once stated for the purpose of a flight. A rejected take off event in my humble opinion would comply with the reg.

That’s also the opinion of an ex CASA FOI who spent 4 years in the job.
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Old 22nd Dec 2020, 06:20
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sheriff190 View Post
This is why Australia will never send a person to the moon
Haha love this
so true!-)
this sure has been an interesting read, just goes to show that pilots are not united in anything!😂
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Old 22nd Dec 2020, 06:43
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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This is why Australia will never send a person to the moon.
Correct (sadly).
Logbook rules are merely one example of the utter overkill that is the Australian aviation regulatory regime.

In the USA, FAR 61.51 only requires the recording of (1) training and aeronautical experience used to meet the requirements for a certificate, rating, or flight review of Part 61, and (2) the aeronautical experience required for meeting the flight experience requirements of Part 61.

Accordingly, in the USA, you don’t have to log ordinary, run-of-the-mill jollies. But you log the occasional flight to show, for example, that you’ve done 3 take offs and landings within the 90 days previous to today’s flight, to meet the recency requirements to carry passengers today, per FAR 61.57.

In Australia, you are of course a criminal if you fail to record each and every flight. And you’re also a criminal if you record in your logbook, as flight time, a period that never included a period in which the aircraft became airborne. It’s ‘safer’ this way.

(Time ‘on duty’ is a related but different concept than ‘flight time’.)

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Old 22nd Dec 2020, 08:09
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Lead Balloon View Post
Correct (sadly). Logbook rules are merely one example of the utter overkill that is the Australian aviation regulatory regime.

In the USA, FAR 61.51 only requires the recording of (1) training and aeronautical experience used to meet the requirements for a certificate, rating, or flight review of Part 61, and (2) the aeronautical experience required for meeting the flight experience requirements of Part 61.

Accordingly, in the USA, you don’t have to log ordinary, run-of-the-mill jollies. But you log the occasional flight to show, for example, that you’ve done 3 take offs and landings within the 90 days previous to today’s flight, to meet the recency requirements to carry passengers today, per FAR 61.57.

In Australia, you are of course a criminal if you fail to record each and every flight. And you’re also a criminal if you record in your logbook, as flight time, a period that never included a period in which the aircraft became airborne. It’s ‘safer’ this way.

(Time ‘on duty’ is a related but different concept than ‘flight time’.)
LB do you log "chock to chock" time or only "Wheels off and wheels on" in your logbook?
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Old 22nd Dec 2020, 09:15
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Lead Balloon View Post
Correct (sadly). Logbook rules are merely one example of the utter overkill that is the Australian aviation regulatory regime.

In the USA, FAR 61.51 only requires the recording of (1) training and aeronautical experience used to meet the requirements for a certificate, rating, or flight review of Part 61, and (2) the aeronautical experience required for meeting the flight experience requirements of Part 61.

Accordingly, in the USA, you don’t have to log ordinary, run-of-the-mill jollies. But you log the occasional flight to show, for example, that you’ve done 3 take offs and landings within the 90 days previous to today’s flight, to meet the recency requirements to carry passengers today, per FAR 61.57.

In Australia, you are of course a criminal if you fail to record each and every flight. And you’re also a criminal if you record in your logbook, as flight time, a period that never included a period in which the aircraft became airborne. It’s ‘safer’ this way.

(Time ‘on duty’ is a related but different concept than ‘flight time’.)
Where people use their log books to claim more experience than they really have is perhaps different from not recording every flight?

I know my books have some missed flights - not to mislead. If CASA want to question that - let them, I can't find the details on those flights so skipped them and just wrote "missing entries" and a block of dates with no time recorded, doubt CASA could find the details - if they could I would actually be grateful!

I sometimes have written an entry at the appropriate point stating as much and I record no time.

Do you really need to add 0.3 to your total aeronautical experience because you ran an engine up and couldn't clear a rev drop or had some other issue? (I have had one student get a sudden case of the runs during runup and had to taxi back promptly as close to the toilet block as I could whereupon he jumped out and waddled off). Up to you, go for it if you think it adds something to your resume but really? I wouldn't mind a beer for the times I have not taken off because of an issue but I would not think it worth adding to my record of hours. That just me. Legally I think you would not pass the requirements as you didn't make a flight despite what some say. (IMO)

All that said what people write in their log book is their business. I do shake my head sometimes though. I have watched one person sit down at the desk and write themselves as PIC for flights in their log book and not even put me down as other crew when I certainly was the PIC and they were under instruction (not under supervision).

I have heard some classics from colleagues who have come across brazenly fraudulent log books - one person caught out because my colleague had a photocopy of some pages of their log book kept with training records that were then sent to a new school and the photocopy told a rather different story of dual and solo flights to the log book presented to the new school.

Your log book though. But do you really need an extra 0.3 that bad? Like I said earlier - we would not even charge the pilot if that happened (unless the fault was their doing). Sensible choice to not fly? Yep. So is not flying if at the last minute you decide the weather is getting too dicey. Should you add a few tenths for that because it "made you a better pilot" or you showed good airmanship?

All my opinion of course. Others clearly have a different take.
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Old 22nd Dec 2020, 09:43
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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Experience is in the pilot, not a logbook!!!!

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Old 22nd Dec 2020, 09:46
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Ixixly View Post
LB do you log "chock to chock" time or only "Wheels off and wheels on" in your logbook?
If I get airborne, the flight time I enter in my logbook is ‘chock to chock’.

Wheels off to wheels on is aircraft ‘time in service’ that I enter in the maintenance release.
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Old 22nd Dec 2020, 10:19
  #34 (permalink)  
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If I get airborne, the flight time I enter in my logbook is ‘chock to chock’.

Wheels off to wheels on is aircraft ‘time in service’ that I enter in the maintenance release.
Likewise. This is/was also the requirement of every Company I worked for.

As to the OP's question re rejected T/O's; I did not log that time. Just my choice. Only ever been a few anyway.
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Old 22nd Dec 2020, 10:43
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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OP, what are we talking about here ... point .3.. Make a comment in the entry that it was a rejected takeoff or some such. Shows and displays a level of airmanship to anyone reading your logbook.

In the scheme of things I totally doubt if anyone would really give a ...care...and I dare say CASA wouldn’t either. It is not like you are employing the VH BIC method.

AUSSIE Sky Gods pontificating over .3 in a Log Book...no wonder we are held in such high esteem around the world!!!



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Old 22nd Dec 2020, 10:44
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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Company bullshit in their procedures or other crap doesn’t take precedence over regulations.

I had an APU fire in a Dash 8 and evacuated the aircraft at the holding point. I logged the time in my logbook, probably 0.3. If anyone wants to take me to task on the legitimacy of me logging that, bring it on!!!!

Last edited by Duck Pilot; 22nd Dec 2020 at 10:55.
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Old 22nd Dec 2020, 10:51
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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Why do people get so wound up? It’s just a discussion.

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Old 22nd Dec 2020, 11:26
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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Here’s more to add to the discussion to wind people up
some added extra

Using the OP example. . . .
if the ground run (post RTO and return) was all good and the flight went ahead, would you or would you not log the time on the tacho that preceded the 2nd, and successful attempt?
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Old 22nd Dec 2020, 12:59
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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Log everything! As long as it is genuine and not VH-BIC!
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Old 22nd Dec 2020, 14:01
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Duck Pilot View Post
Company bullshit in their procedures or other crap doesn’t take precedence over regulations.

I had an APU fire in a Dash 8 and evacuated the aircraft at the holding point. I logged the time in my logbook, probably 0.3. If anyone wants to take me to task on the legitimacy of me logging that, bring it on!!!!
Trash 8 flex
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