Flying for free to build hours
Sorry but no. This person wants to displace another newbie getting an opportunity to gain some experience and being properly rewarded for it, as humble as that reward maybe. He is not talking about a one of ferry.
To take on so much debt should already demonstrate some kind of commitment to the game. Being in debt with no job does not feel good at all, with someone in our group falling into a mild depression/regret for having chosen this career path.
So thanks for the harsh replies.
So thanks for the harsh replies.
It was your choice to take on the debt, a huge investment in a volatile industry that presumably you did due dilligence on and understood the considerable risk, so why should others like myself who made the commitment by working four jobs simultaneously to pay for it as they went along be expected to give up their career for someone who chose to put themselves in that situation?
Your debt is your choice. If it is a VET debt than we flying taxpayers are already subsidising you. By deliberately setting yourself up to be under the threshold you are already getting a free ride apart from the indexation, isn't that enough? It's not like the bank is going to come along and take your house. My advice, get a trade and start contributing.
The other professions you mentioned are independent contractors. In aviation, it’s the nature of the business that you are always an employee. Totally different situations.
Sorry but no. This person wants to displace another newbie getting an opportunity to gain some experience and being properly rewarded for it, as humble as that reward maybe.
Which then leads back to the original problem of how do you get experience if all the 'professional' operators say you are to inexperienced? To be quite honest it's not even zero time pilots who work for free. Guys with 1000 hours fly for free just to get twin time. So if you take the moral high ground how do you get experience?
Which then leads back to the original problem of how do you get experience if all the 'professional' operators say you are to inexperienced? To be quite honest it's not even zero time pilots who work for free. Guys with 1000 hours fly for free just to get twin time. So if you take the moral high ground how do you get experience?
The same skills that are required in any career.
Someone who will be ostracised by the staff is NOT going to be a valuable team member. The idea that they are being supported by a rich family doesn't really go down well, nor does the fact that there is a white ant in their midst.
The same skills that are required in any career.
Someone who will be ostracised by the staff is NOT going to be a valuable team member. The idea that they are being supported by a rich family doesn't really go down well, nor does the fact that there is a white ant in their midst.
Someone who will be ostracised by the staff is NOT going to be a valuable team member. The idea that they are being supported by a rich family doesn't really go down well, nor does the fact that there is a white ant in their midst.
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That is true although I did check with Fair Work and if it's "vocational" then it's legal to work for free, whether you are an employee or a contractor.
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You're welcome.
It was your choice to take on the debt, a huge investment in a volatile industry that presumably you did due dilligence on and understood the considerable risk, so why should others like myself who made the commitment by working four jobs simultaneously to pay for it as they went along be expected to give up their career for someone who chose to put themselves in that situation?
Your debt is your choice. If it is a VET debt than we flying taxpayers are already subsidising you. By deliberately setting yourself up to be under the threshold you are already getting a free ride apart from the indexation, isn't that enough? It's not like the bank is going to come along and take your house. My advice, get a trade and start contributing.
It was your choice to take on the debt, a huge investment in a volatile industry that presumably you did due dilligence on and understood the considerable risk, so why should others like myself who made the commitment by working four jobs simultaneously to pay for it as they went along be expected to give up their career for someone who chose to put themselves in that situation?
Your debt is your choice. If it is a VET debt than we flying taxpayers are already subsidising you. By deliberately setting yourself up to be under the threshold you are already getting a free ride apart from the indexation, isn't that enough? It's not like the bank is going to come along and take your house. My advice, get a trade and start contributing.
Harsh! Taxpayers didn't subsidise my student loan debt in the long term. It's a debt I owe to the government indexed annually. It's not a donation from taxpayers. The whole point of taking on VET debt is to work in the aviation industry, earn above the threshold, and become an ordinary contributing taxpayer (which also slowly chips away at paying off the VET debt through my aviation career).
I and many others worked our arses off to get our qualifications, and you just want to come in an undercut us all by “working for free, but only at the start”. How long does “the start” go for?
You're degrading your future profession, you’re preventing someone from earning a living and you have a lot to learn about professional integrity.
What about the legalities of insurance etc. when you prang an aeroplane and injure your passengers? You’re not a paid employee, so you most likely aren’t covered by any form of indemnity or hull loss insurance. I bet you’d argue that you are an employee, but watch a lawyer tear that apart in court and then sue you for millions.
Regarding your claim about friends who work in graphic design or whatever needing testimonials etc. Do you think you need that sort of crap to work as a professional pilot? Did you do any sort of research about your intended career path as a pilot? Do you understand your VET loan requirements and the fact that you don’t pay anything until you reach a certain threshold of income? Don’t cry to us that you’re “lumped with debt”. You’ve got a loan that doesn’t require repayments until you earn a certain amount.
What about those of us who have genuine debts like housing loans, and the cost of keeping a family going. You might be a long way down the chain from some of us, but if we get enough of you scabs volunteering to fly for free, it goes up the chain and then next thing you’re affecting my income.
It’s a very small industry buddy, and if people find out your name, then it’ll spread like a weed and your name will be dirt. You might work your way up through the industry no problem because of it, but it won’t be an enjoyable path because of the hatred people will have for you.
Yes, sounds harsh doesn’t it, but if you degrade my profession, then you deserve every criticism you get.
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I don’t know much about VET, but you’re telling me that you pay the same interest rate that a bank would charge? If not, then yes, we are subsidising you.
I and many others worked our arses off to get our qualifications, and you just want to come in an undercut us all by “working for free, but only at the start”. How long does “the start” go for?
You're degrading your future profession, you’re preventing someone from earning a living and you have a lot to learn about professional integrity.
What about the legalities of insurance etc. when you prang an aeroplane and injure your passengers? You’re not a paid employee, so you most likely aren’t covered by any form of indemnity or hull loss insurance. I bet you’d argue that you are an employee, but watch a lawyer tear that apart in court and then sue you for millions.
Regarding your claim about friends who work in graphic design or whatever needing testimonials etc. Do you think you need that sort of crap to work as a professional pilot? Did you do any sort of research about your intended career path as a pilot? Do you understand your VET loan requirements and the fact that you don’t pay anything until you reach a certain threshold of income? Don’t cry to us that you’re “lumped with debt”. You’ve got a loan that doesn’t require repayments until you earn a certain amount.
What about those of us who have genuine debts like housing loans, and the cost of keeping a family going. You might be a long way down the chain from some of us, but if we get enough of you scabs volunteering to fly for free, it goes up the chain and then next thing you’re affecting my income.
It’s a very small industry buddy, and if people find out your name, then it’ll spread like a weed and your name will be dirt. You might work your way up through the industry no problem because of it, but it won’t be an enjoyable path because of the hatred people will have for you.
Yes, sounds harsh doesn’t it, but if you degrade my profession, then you deserve every criticism you get.
I and many others worked our arses off to get our qualifications, and you just want to come in an undercut us all by “working for free, but only at the start”. How long does “the start” go for?
You're degrading your future profession, you’re preventing someone from earning a living and you have a lot to learn about professional integrity.
What about the legalities of insurance etc. when you prang an aeroplane and injure your passengers? You’re not a paid employee, so you most likely aren’t covered by any form of indemnity or hull loss insurance. I bet you’d argue that you are an employee, but watch a lawyer tear that apart in court and then sue you for millions.
Regarding your claim about friends who work in graphic design or whatever needing testimonials etc. Do you think you need that sort of crap to work as a professional pilot? Did you do any sort of research about your intended career path as a pilot? Do you understand your VET loan requirements and the fact that you don’t pay anything until you reach a certain threshold of income? Don’t cry to us that you’re “lumped with debt”. You’ve got a loan that doesn’t require repayments until you earn a certain amount.
What about those of us who have genuine debts like housing loans, and the cost of keeping a family going. You might be a long way down the chain from some of us, but if we get enough of you scabs volunteering to fly for free, it goes up the chain and then next thing you’re affecting my income.
It’s a very small industry buddy, and if people find out your name, then it’ll spread like a weed and your name will be dirt. You might work your way up through the industry no problem because of it, but it won’t be an enjoyable path because of the hatred people will have for you.
Yes, sounds harsh doesn’t it, but if you degrade my profession, then you deserve every criticism you get.
Please understand that none of us want to work for free. Some of us will be eating into our savings while we fly for free. We just feel we have no other choice to get a break in the industry, so we are going ahead with it.
Yes I did my research before getting into this industry but no amount of research prepared for the current pandemic. Flying for free probably wouldn't have been an option pre-pandemic but the economics have changed so we'll do a resume drop and see what happens.
Nigel's a scab. So is anyone else trying to rationalize working for free.
You're lazy and looking for a way to justify taking shortcuts the rest of us didn't. Like mentioned previously - your name will be made mud if you ever actually make it into a paid position.
You're lazy and looking for a way to justify taking shortcuts the rest of us didn't. Like mentioned previously - your name will be made mud if you ever actually make it into a paid position.
You're lazy and looking for a way to justify taking shortcuts the rest of us didn't. Like mentioned previously - your name will be made mud if you ever actually make it into a paid position.
End of the day noone cares how you got your experience as long as it isn't fake whether you got paid or not is irrelevant. That's just the reality of the situation. Aviation isn't a "good bloke" competition or who took the moral high ground it's all about who has the experience.
Further to all this would you blacklist AMES/LAMES/IT Professionals/Accountants/Lawyers/Plumbers/Carpenters who have offered their services for free just to get flying jobs? Are they scabs as well? How would the local accountant feel that he lost a client because some pilot/accountant did the accounts for free so that he can fly?
Last edited by neville_nobody; 6th Nov 2020 at 00:58.
Harsh! Taxpayers didn't subsidise my student loan debt in the long term. It's a debt I owe to the government indexed annually. It's not a donation from taxpayers. The whole point of taking on VET debt is to work in the aviation industry, earn above the threshold, and become an ordinary contributing taxpayer (which also slowly chips away at paying off the VET debt through my aviation career).
Agreed. Go on Neville, tell us where you got your free hours. Scab
Neville @ post #20
And no I never paid to fly or flew for free but I wouldn't necessarily black ball someone who did. ..
End of the day noone cares how you got your experience as long as it isn't fake whether you got paid or not is irrelevant. That's just the reality of the situation. Aviation isn't a "good bloke" competition or who took the moral high ground it's all about who has the experience.
Clearly the amount of industry people posting here that you are trying to argue against should have given you a clue otherwise.